Bowling for Columbine - revisited

[Wombat]

So, I was going to add this to the previous <I>Bowling</I> thread, but it's locked up in the Soap Box...


So, disclaimer: I haven't seen <I>Bowling</I> yet, but I've seen other movies by Moore.

Somebody pointed me to some very interesting facts about <I>Bowling</I>, and it's made me lose what ambiguous respect I had for Moore -- the guy is a sham, and should be shut down for forgery.

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

He's right, it's not a documentary, it's fiction at best.

[dZeus]

I have seen bowling on advice of one of my flatmates, and while I agree with some of points that Moore makes, this movie is just utter sensationalist garbage.

[Gurm]

Yup. Moore has some interesting points every once in a while, and has parlayed this into a career spewing 90% bullshit. I can't listen to the 90% bullshit long enough to make it to the 10% good stuff. Sort of the same reason I don't go to church any more.

- Gurm

[UtwigMU]

I would agree here.

While he's on track with problems, he finds all the wrong reasons.

For instance people shoot each other in USA, but not in Canada (not at same order of magnitude), but then he starts blaming it on the NRA.

I think so called "liberals" could be a lot more succesful in USA if they weren't so radical for USA taste and they wouldn't throw stuff in the same basket.

As for weapons: I like the way we have it here.

For licence you need to:
- not be convicted
- need a reason
- need to pass basic training
- need to pass medical checkup

[ZokesPro]

US society is in a decline, whether or not Micheal Moore "deceived" us in his "documentary" his point has been made and there's still a lot of truth in the so called "bullshit" you see in that movie. There's a bigger meaning to his movie and he's not the only one sending this message, you can hear the SAME message in certain songs by NoFX, Sum41, etc..

You still cannot deny the fact that your American society is in a decline, every intelligent American knows it and that's what Micheal Moore's trying to make you all see. One thing that's indeed helping your decline is your media. If you could only see past the veil that your media has dropped over your eyes than you'll understand, otherwise your probably just gonna think that I'm taking out my ass but it's SO TRUE that it's sickening.

Micheal's not trying to deceive you, he's trying to show you the truth about your so called "rock solid economic American society". But then again, there are SO MANY people that are so anchored in the system that they will never see it, unplug yourself from the Matrix and you'll see.

Even my roomate thinks that the fact that everyone is still discussing the stuff portrayed in Micheal's movie proves that what Moore says isn't all that false.

Roommate : "If this guy was only telling some lies, nobody would've bothered. It is bothering people in there because they have been raised in a manner that makes them believe so firmly that they are educated the right way in the right country that they can't accept the FACTS he says. He's not there to decieve you, he's there to show that truth. That truth that most US residents won't accept because their country told them in a so subtle manner that they don't even know why they defend their country so blindly. They are then trying to find some lies about what Moore says (just like a child reacts to some other child) to "prove" that he's wrong or disoriented mentally. And the fact that people react so fiercly proves that they won't accept those things because their country is supposed to be all good."

http://www.revoketheoscar.com/

Surprise, surprise. There's some serious lunacy coming out of Michael Moore's mouth, this time on CNN's Crossfire. Take a look at these whoppers.

I'd like to ask the question whether September 11 was a terrorist attack, or was it a military attack? We call it a terrorist attack. We keep calling it a terrorist attack.

But it sure has the markings of a military attack. And I'd like to know whose military was involved in this precision, perfectly planned operation. I'm sorry, but my common sense has never allowed me to believe since that day that you can learn how to fly a plane at 500 miles per hour. And you know, when you go up 500 miles an hour, if you're off by this much, you're in the Potomac. You don't hit a five-store building like that.

You don't learn how to do that at some rinky-dink flight training school in Florida on a little video game with PacMan buttons. I'm sorry. I just don't buy that.

And I'd like to know what the involvement was within the Saudi military or the Saudi royal family or what rogue elements within the Saudi regime, whatever it is. I want to read those 28 pages and I want to know what the truth is.

This is a brilliant example of ignoring an obvious truth in order to feed the appetite of one of your ridiculous conspiracy theories. Why, in the name of God, would pilots trained by the Saudi military come to America and check themselves into a flight school? These men checked into flight schools (with full simulators, not "video games with Pac Man buttons"), paid cash, and specifically trained only on flying, not on takeoff or landing. I suppose this was some sort of grand conspiracy to hide in plain sight; to act so much like Islamic terrorists, who wanted to learn just enough to be able to fly a plane into a building, that they would never be detected by the authorities. Seriously, no matter what your opinions about Bush and the war, you have got to be absolutely delusional to even entertain this ridiculous idea. This ranks right up there with the French claim that all the Jews were told to stay away from work on 9/11.

To me this idea makes sense, because nothing else does. It also proves that the MEDIA again covered up an issue that should not have been covered up the way it did. And as a result, the American people whole heartily agreed to put more cash flow into the military, just so they can retaliate against this so called "terrorism". It's just adding fuel to an already big fire. It's quite sad.

[cjolley]

Originally posted by ZokesPro
To me this idea makes sense, because nothing else does.

Lots of things that "make sense" are untrue, and lots of things that "make no sense" are true.

Take a history of science class if you want plenty of examples.

Not to say he's not right, though I doubt it.
It's just that "making sense" isn't evidence.

chuck

[ZokesPro]

Originally posted by cjolley
Lots of things that "make sense" are untrue, and lots of things that "make no sense" are true.

Take a history of science class if you want plenty of examples.

Not to say he's not right, though I doubt it.
It's just that "making sense" isn't evidence.

chuck

True, but my comment was more aimed at validating my point about the media sensationalising many stories, or covering up what they don't want the public to see.

But yeah, I don't take what he says as true, just as a logical explanation to something rather puzzling.

[MultimediaMan]

I would disagree he is on track. He has an agenda, and his Documentary is supposed to be following the truth, not what he believes is true, unfortunately we see many, many instances of him altering events to fit his ends...not the truth.

He makes Leni Riefenstahl and Sergei Eisenstein look positively amateur.

The Gun Control Groups here in the U.S. have been twisting the truth for a long time: Take a look at the now-villified Arming America by Michael Bellisiles: Another author who manufactured facts. This guy lied and Lied and LIED to the point where he nowhere to go - he had to give up the Bancroft Prize and his fellowship.

Look at the Gun Control Group's web sites...they never quote their statistical sources, and a recent report by the CDC came up with NO answers regarding the causal effect of the presece of firearms to deaths or injuries.

In the past (the Clinton Era), the CDC tried classify ALL firearm injuries and deaths: Accidental Shootings; Suicides, Murders, Lawful Shootings by Police and Civilians into the same "statistical database" regardless of the cause or result, to try to classify Firearms as a disease. Firearms do not classify as a disease or a living organism.

The problem is not, and never has been firearms; but how they are used, and if you look at who is misusing them, it is easy to see that drugs, poverty and ignorance are to blame far more than the mere presence of an inanimate object.

We should see public education for everyone to know how to handle a firearm, whether they want to or not: Why? To avoid accidents and show people their potential for damage. One of the reasons many other countries have such low accient rates with firearms is because they ARE trained how to use them, so the base of people who unwittingly misuse/misplace them is low.

Education beats the crap out of regulation, every time.

[Taz-Matt]

Are you free?

- Did you really choose to go to school and learn the things you did or did the government and companies almost forced you to go to school, get good grades, learn the thing they want you to learn to be a good citizen?

- Did you really choose what you like to do for a living or did the government and companies allied together to create a media where this field was being promoted as fun and lucrative for you to have better chances to get there and serve their needs?

- Did you really choose to work 40 hours a week, 5 days a week for about 50 years to get yourself a good retirement plan or did the goverment cooperated with the companies to control the way you live to make you think you're doing well when in fact, you are doing exactly what they need, just to get your reward at the end?

And I could say a ton more of these...

Thinking that way, do you think the way you want or do you think the way you want according to what you've learned? And is what you've learned have been decided by yourself or have you been influenced by the system in which you grew in and did not even realize it because it's so tight that you don't even see it? Is the governement trying to hide you the truth of the millions of innocent deaths in other countries? Did the teenagers in Columbine high school (Home of the Rebels) shoot each other because they had guns or did they saw the massacre in Kosovo the same day and thought "Man, WE are making these weapons that are killing thousands of innocents, WE ARE MAKING them in our own little town (in littleton)" and then shot others to be sure they wouldn't make any other weapons later on?

For that, I don't have any answers and I don't say that it is working exactly that way but it seems to me it is what Michael Moore is trying to show us. He's just trying to SHOW US, not to make us believe. But from this point of view, it's for sure a good thing to at least think about it!

For my part, I can at least say that I thought about it and will continue to think about it... And about the people dying in themselves in this fabulous, invincible AMERICA!

- Taz-Matt

[Wombat]

Originally posted by ZokesPro

Micheal's not trying to deceive you, he's trying to show you the truth about your so called "rock solid economic American society".

He's not trying to deceive me? When he splices multiple speeches together to make people say things they didn't, he's not deceiving me? When he takes a quote from one source, and attributes it to another, out of context, he's not trying to deceive me? Pray tell, what exactly <I>is</I> he trying to do?

[MultimediaMan]

What he is trying to do is TELL you what to think.

He draws all of the conclusions for his viewers, not allowing them to think for themselves.

Read about what Lockheed-Martin actually makes in Littleton, and you will see he is not trying to inform the user, but deliberately misleads the viewer, by changing context and literally manufacturing dialogue.

This is not offering a different point of view, this is presenting one man's fantasy as reality.

Michael Moore is LUCKY to be American...in most other countries he would have been jail, or worse, for doing what he did.

Try that in any middle-eastern nation and he would been shot dead on the spot. In Africa or South America he would have disappeared faster than a freshman girl on prom night. In Europe he would likely have been jailed for publicly lying, akin to Holocaust Denial in Germany.

No, he can't be right and the rest of us wrong...why? Because I watched the "documentary", and I know for a fact many of the facts he purports are nothing more than left-wing drivel, reconstituted as a serious documentary.

I did my own thinking, and as others have done, uncovered, frame by frame, line by line alterations to events, places and names. This guy is a two-bit charlatan.

[Jammrock]

Re: Are you free?

Originally posted by Taz-Matt
- Did you really choose to go to school and learn the things you did or did the government and companies almost forced you to go to school, get good grades, learn the thing they want you to learn to be a good citizen?

Actually, I did go to school to learn what I wanted. I recieved a basic education in grade school, and then recieved a very specific education to learn exactly what I wanted to do.

- Did you really choose what you like to do for a living or did the government and companies allied together to create a media where this field was being promoted as fun and lucrative for you to have better chances to get there and serve their needs?

I am doing exactly what I want to be doing.

- Did you really choose to work 40 hours a week, 5 days a week for about 50 years to get yourself a good retirement plan or did the goverment cooperated with the companies to control the way you live to make you think you're doing well when in fact, you are doing exactly what they need, just to get your reward at the end?

As apposed to giving all of your money to your socialist government and let them tell you what you should do with your money? Or maybe moving into the wilderness of Canada and living off the land? Or living in your parents basement, smoking pot, and arguing about the man for the rest of your life? I chose my profession. I accepted the price needed to be paid to compete in my field. What more needs to be said?

If you don't like the "western world" then leave it. We don't require you to stay. 40 hours a day, 5 days a week is for peons. People who are after the big money work 60+ hours a week, travel 2-3 days a week, and spend almost as much time in school as a doctor. And for their dedication they get bigger rewards. It's the way Western Society works.

And I could say a ton more of these...

Keep 'em coming.

Thinking that way, do you think the way you want or do you think the way you want according to what you've learned? And is what you've learned have been decided by yourself or have you been influenced by the system in which you grew in and did not even realize it because it's so tight that you don't even see it?

That made absolutely no sense. Sober up and try again.

Is the governement trying to hide you the truth of the millions of innocent deaths in other countries?

Millions? Really? Where? What do you define an innocent death? If a man dies of old age, did he not die innocently? Does that count?

Did the teenagers in Columbine high school (Home of the Rebels) shoot each other because they had guns or did they saw the massacre in Kosovo the same day and thought "Man, WE are making these weapons that are killing thousands of innocents, WE ARE MAKING them in our own little town (in littleton)" and then shot others to be sure they wouldn't make any other weapons later on?

No, they were just a couple of st00pid psycho kids. Nothing more, nothing less.

For that, I don't have any answers and I don't say that it is working exactly that way but it seems to me it is what Michael Moore is trying to show us. He's just trying to SHOW US, not to make us believe. But from this point of view, it's for sure a good thing to at least think about it!

Michael Moore is a liberal sensationalist with a camera and an editing crew. The only thing he knows how to accurately protray is the way to his refridgerator.

For my part, I can at least say that I thought about it and will continue to think about it... And about the people dying in themselves in this fabulous, invincible AMERICA!

ROFL ... that's a good one. Nothing on this Earth is immortal. To say that we "Americans" think we are invinsible is retarded, and shows your complete lack of understanding about the American culture and history. BTW, Canada is in North America, so you're technically an American too

Come back in 4-5 months when the mary jane is out of your system and you can form a proper thought.

Jammrock

[ZokesPro]

Re: Re: Are you free?

Originally posted by Wombat
He's not trying to deceive me? When he splices multiple speeches together to make people say things they didn't, he's not deceiving me? When he takes a quote from one source, and attributes it to another, out of context, he's not trying to deceive me? Pray tell, what exactly <I>is</I> he trying to do?

I think he's trying ot show that our society (canadian as well as american) is ina decline and it's not getting better.

Originally posted by Jammrock
No, they were just a couple of st00pid psycho kids. Nothing more, nothing less.

Then how come you don't see MORE of this?? They had a reason, and although we'll never know what it is, they HAD a reason.

Edit: Micheal Moore maybe a genius in his own mind, and most of you will probably never see it the way he does (ina way it's agood thing) but at least he makes you think about how our society really is and where it's going. But you didn't even have to see Bowling for Columbine to see that. But if you guys can't see it then what's the point of even trying ot do any good in this world anymore? Everything is run by corporations, they tell us what we buy and how much of it we need, it's so obvious, but ina capitlist world that's the way it works.

[Gurm]

No. He lies and slanders. Whether he does this to "make a point" is irrelevant. His "point" is ALSO wrong. He is attempting to "get you to think", but only in the direction he wants, in support of HIS AGENDA.

- Gurm

[Gurm]

Frankly, I'm surprised that Charlton Heston hasn't sued Moore yet. I would, if I were him.

- Gurm