Florida passes self-defense bill

[xortam]

It's easy to reduce crime when you de-criminalize crime.

[xortam]

... No, I don't compare rape with murder. I think rape is worse. ...

How in the world do you rationalize that?

[The PIT]

Wombat, How can you even compare rape with murder?
Off course rape is wrong!!!
But Murder is also wrong!

This aint mathematics - two wrongs doesnt make a right.

And Selfdefense?


There IS no selfdefense. The Germans used selfdefense as the reason for their attack on Poland. They might have been right! Poland WOULD have attacked Germany. Maybe. Sometime.

Nothing to do with the present argument. A pointless point about something completely different.

There is only attack. Attacking back is still attacking.

Its wrong to attack, IE when you are swearing to selfdefense, you are still doing something wrong.

Err so I'm supposed to let them hit me stab me etc.

If you get attacked, RUN.

Sure I'm world record holder in the Marathon. So I'm supposed to get beaten up.

If you get attacked and you shoot the attacker, you are a murderer.

Well it's better than myself being dead.

There is no other way around this.

Well there is and you're badly injured or dead.


As far as I'm concerned if someone attacks me. I should be allowed to defend myself as see fit. If in the cause of defending myself the attacker ends up dead thats his/her tough shit. They shouldn't have attacked me in the first place.

[Wombat]

How in the world do you rationalize that?

Because I've known plenty of rape victims, especially young & teenage women. I think it's less harmful to simply end someone's life than to f*ck up their identity and mental health for as long as they live.

[xortam]

Because I've known plenty of rape victims, especially young & teenage women. I think it's less harmful to simply end someone's life than to f*ck up their identity and mental health for as long as they live.

... and how do they feel about that? Death is forever. Life is worth preserving even if it has been damaged (and let's not get side-tracked by rehashing the Schiavo case issues).

[DukeP]

I really have a hard time arguing about this - forme hte case is soo clear that the allogies elude me.

But it feels like the US is throwing away the last 200 years of gain in their level of civilisation.

Its back to the times of the lawless west, where a man had to defend himself, because there were no law - no civilisation.

All romantics about that time besides;
Its regression.

~~DukeP~~

[DukeP]

... and how do they feel about that? Death is forever. Life is worth preserving even if it has been damaged (and let's not get side-tracked by rehashing the Schiavo case issues).

As the old pope said: All life holds value, even the feeblest.

As said by the man who forgave his assasin and begged for his salvation.

~~DukeP~~

[xortam]

As the old pope said: All life holds value, even the feeblest.

As said by the man who forgave his assasin and begged for his salvation.

~~DukeP~~

I'll have to agree with him there. I always remove insects from the home rather than kill them. I respect life in all its forms.

[The PIT]

I really have a hard time arguing about this - forme hte case is soo clear that the allogies elude me.

But it feels like the US is throwing away the last 200 years of gain in their level of civilisation.

Its back to the times of the lawless west, where a man had to defend himself, because there were no law - no civilisation.

All romantics about that time besides;
Its regression.

~~DukeP~~

Perhaps because you're talking nonesense that why your having a hard time.

[DukeP]

Perhaps because you're talking nonesense that why your having a hard time.

Perhaps.

Or because my reality is soo removed from yours?

I dont know your reality. But if its different enough, then I can see why you would find my statements to be nonsense.

In my country only the cops and the criminals carry guns.

The cops to protect the cops against the criminals.

The criminals to protect the criminals against the criminals.

I think we have on average one incident every 20.000.000 manyears of an innocent getting shot, here in my country.

The odds are on my side, I gather.

So what came first, chicken or the egg?

~~DukeP~~

[xortam]

... So what came first, chicken or the egg? ...

It doesn't matter ... they both get cooked.

[Sasq]

Or a brick or anything she might find handy. Just don't throw an angry cat at him or she'll have all the animal rights activists all over her for mentaly hurting the poor animal

In that Case just throw the PETA activist at them.

Now guys calm down.

We have done this 100 times before, what works in USA does not work in EU, what works in EU does not work in Asia Pacific, what works in Asia Pacific does not work in USA.

While I enjoy going to a range and abusing a few targets, I am for gun control that is tighter then a fishes a**hole. But that particular horse bolted from the stable too long ago in the US.
Closing the barn door now, isn't going to do any good.

Doc, just to help put things in perspective, do you have any crime stats from the other states that have inacted similar laws? just to help show if this is a good thing or not, and it will help show the context of this law - in its correct setting.

As for home intrusion, not sure here, it happens so little, the laws in oz, I think have changed since I left, we just had an unwritten rule on home intrusion - kill them and - 'it was dark officer, i saw what I thought was a knife and i feared for my life'

[Wombat]

The criminals to protect the criminals against the criminals.

I think we have on average one incident every 20.000.000 manyears of an innocent getting shot, here in my country.

The odds are on my side, I gather.

So what came first, chicken or the egg?

~~DukeP~~

So either you don't have to deal with criminals because you don't have them, or you don't have criminals because you don't deal with them.

Either way, it's a sophmoric argument. The US has criminals. Violent ones. Your society cannot handle our situation, and there's no magic pill to make criminals go away from ours.

[Brian R.]

Like it or not this isn't just the NRA opinion; it's the mainstream opinion in the US now. Dr. Mordrid

Right. Just like Bush has a mandate. It's all political statistical BS. We've heard your opinion and you cannot present anything I would consider as a fact. You or anyone with an interest in the outcome cannot be trusted to provide valid information.

Sasq - do not trust any statistics presented. There is no end to the slant that a survey may be made to follow. The independent and dependent variables generally have no clear distinction when it comes to these issues. Mordrid can present a statistic that provides any argument he wants. The statistician just asks what result do you want to see.

[DukeP]

So either you don't have to deal with criminals because you don't have them, or you don't have criminals because you don't deal with them.

Either way, it's a sophmoric argument. The US has criminals. Violent ones. Your society cannot handle our situation, and there's no magic pill to make criminals go away from ours.

Or we dont have criminals because we treat people like people instead of like criminals?

Anyhow we DO have criminals.


And off course we have robberies. There will always be people that get themselves in a situation where they see crime as their only escape (mostly drug abusers, we are still trying to find an efficient way to properly handle the poor sob's).

They just dont need to be violent (because they are not afraid of getting shot).

So people rarely get hurt.

So people doesnt fear getting robbed.

Its more considered an annoyance, on the lvl of getting a parking ticket (My office was burglared twice last year).

Anyhow: Your right, theres no magic pill. The US. will only get less violent by investing in less guns and more education. Less fear and more hope.

Theres always the chance that the first man that goes on to the street, preaches peace and throw down his gun, is going to get shot with it. No magic pill.

And Id bet its no consolation that you brought this on you self. Consider it the sins of the fathers; its always the children who get to do the cleanup (because they cant vote!).

~~DukeP~~