Ideas for reducing power consumption

[VJ]

agallag: I would also go for a DB9...


Gnep: In Belgium, they recently approved a change in taxes on fuel. Once the price at the pump would reach 1.5 €/l, the tax on fuel would shrink. While it wouldn't stop the fuel price increasing, it does slow down the increase the end-user has to pay.

Let's just hope it doesn't come to this, I mean, 1.2 €/l (1.5 US$ /l) already is a lot:
1 US gallon is 3.7 liters, so this means 4.44 €/ US gallon, which translates to 5.7 US $ / US gallon...


Jörg

[Lizzard[MPE]]

jesus what do you people have against car pooling with an SUV.

dont tell me taking 10 different cars is better.

[VJ]

jesus what do you people have against car pooling with an SUV.
dont tell me taking 10 different cars is better.

Well, I have nothing against carpooling with an SUV, but when I look at the cars (and SUVs) around me in traffic, I see very little carpooling going on.
Some people buy SUVs with this as an argument, but in practise they don't do it. So as a consequence, you have 10 different SUVs in traffic... So, from best to worst:
- carpooling with a normal car
- carpooling with an SUV
- different normal cars
- different SUVs



Jörg

[GT98]

Well part of the problem is that People (at least in the USA) arent going to give up our gas eatting vechicles unless it becomes too painful to keep them fueled up. Gas prices in the states are still below the rates (adjusted for inflation) then what they spiked up too in the early 80's. Plus add in the far different lifestyle that Europe has vs the US (well in most areas) and you can see the difference. The thing I find odd is that I live in the MOST Densely populated area (people per square mile) on the face of the earth, yet I have some of the worse choices when it come to mass transit. Plus add in the convenance of having your own vechicle (which is just impossible to change) to go where you want when you want, its going to be hard to change the American consumers mind to become more fuel effectant.

[VJ]

A couple of years ago, it was said that the critical point for people to start changing their behaviour regarding fuel consumption (purchase of type of car, usage, ...) would be 1.25 €/l. However, as we are nearing closer to that predited critical point, there are more and more SUVs driving around. I'm guessing that the slow, steady increase has also shifted the critical point (back when that was predicted, price was about 1€/l).

As far as population density is concerned, Belgium has one of the highest in Europe with 336 people/km². Moreso, for its surface of 30.510 km², it has 145.850 km of roads (paved: 117,701 km), which - as I was thought in highschool - is a lot...


Jörg

[Lizzard[MPE]]

i think it would be easier if the public transportation system was upgraded. i think a lot more americans would use it. i just dont think the choices are out there.

like where i live for instant. theres a train you can take to miami... you'd have to walk 7 miles to get there though. i would take a bus to work, thats if they actually ran of all hours. i stay at work til midnight. theres no point of taking a bus to work, if you cant take one from work.

i cant walk to the store and thats about it. if i walk north on the road i live on the sidewalk stops about 300 feet down the road. making it impossible. i refuse to walk on the actual road.

i would love to have public transport like say trains that i could jump on and go see my parents. things like that would make it easier to travel across country.

but thats not reallu going to happen is it. what president will stop feeding the oil beast?

[VJ]

Well, let's face it, all ecology set aside: a car is convenient. Or better: a personal transportation device is convenient.

So the only way to "stop feeding the oil beast" (nice expression!), is to provide an alternative, personal transport. Public transport can only do so much.


Jörg

[Brian Ellis]

Well, the Americans don't want the French to say I told you so! I think France has the best integrated public transport in the world. Long distances you have the TGV between hubs. From the hubs, you have other SNCF trains, RER (suburban) and Métros (urban), plus buses. The system works (except when there is a strike!). I used to live in Lausanne in Switzerland, about 500 km from Paris. I went to Paris several times/year on business. Motoring took 5-6 hours (no highways over the Jura mountains) to the Boulevard Périphérique, and up to a further hour into the centre. Air (including 65 km to the airport, waiting after check-in, RER from the Paris Orly airport to the centre etc.) took 5 hours. Both motoring and air is a hassle. Then, one day, in 1985 I think, the TGV came to Lausanne. 3 hours 20 min of quiet relaxation, city centre to city centre, with room to work or have a meal served at your seat, for half the price of either air or car. Sheer luxury and efficiency. The last time I used that line was just two years ago and I paid €95 from Paris to Lausanne, first class.

[Nowhere]

Hmm...something more against SUVs which I thought of right now (and googled for some numbers). Let's see, people car pooling from party/pub in SUV. Legal alcohol limit: 0,8 ‰. Which means a little over 3 beers. Personally, I wouldn't ever dare to drive after 3 beers (did a little test in the past - in safe manner). And here I am, in my megane (yeah, this part is phantasising ), driving in the opposite direction to the SUV which has the driver that I consider drunk, with his ego boosted by the fact that he drives the biggest and "safest" car on the road...hmmm...me not like the idea.

diclaimer: I'm not saying that your friends do that, Lizzie. It's just purely hypothethical, but possible situation not involving any particular individuals mentioned by anyone.

[Dr Mordrid]

One other thing you guys have to take into account is that in the US gasoline is actually quite cheap based on real dollars, meaning after takng into account the inflation of the last 30 years or so.

Using this calculus to be the same cost in real dollars as gasoline in 1970 the price would have to be nearly $10/gallon. It's not nearly that, being $2.03 a gallon for "regular" here in suburban Detroit. Premium grades are perhaps $0.10 - $0.15 more.

Also; even in these days of $50/barrel oil more than 50% of gasolines cost are the taxes that are applied by the US and State governments. The actual cost of the gasoline itself is less than $1 a gallon.

Since people here are not stupid they realize this calculus and look at the previous cheaper prices as a sale that has ended, but even so we're not even back to the inflation-adjusted "real" price.

Will this change? Unlikely in the near term. Usually summer months bring higher prices but in the US prices are dropping due to high supplies.

Much of this has been due to a refinery that was offline coming back into production, but other factors include new refineries on Caribbean islands and the new energy bill having provisions to deregulate oil refinery building in the US itself (no new ones in over 30 years).

The oil futures will also be affected by the new energy bill including approval for new drilling in Alaska and also a possible trillion barrel + oil field recently found in the US state of Idaho.

This is likely just one of many huge fields to be found in the Rocky Mountain overthrust belt. We just haven't been looking before because of the previous low barrel cost of imported oil and the regulatory barriers put up by the Democrat congresses of the 1970's and 1980's.

Now many in both political parties are in the mood to take off the gloves when it comes to domestic oil and gas production. This coalition is now large enough to write new policies and will likely get larger.

At the same time the new energy bill also has large income tax credits for the purchase of Hybrid and alternative fuel vehicles (included: bio-diesel made from grain & biomass), more money for research into fuel cell vehicles (Detroit automakers estimate them on the market in ~4-5 years), new nuclear plants (PBMR is on the move), wind power etc. etc.

Dr. Mordrid

[az]

OK doc, that was a nice long post. What's your point? That fuel is cheap in the US? That's what people have been saying two pages ago.

AZ

[Dr Mordrid]

My points are why prices are lower in real dollars than one might expect and why people are not reacting to higher absolute prices as you euros would think we should. It also documents other factors contributing to the latter.

I heard an interesting point made by an oil market analyst the other day. Basically his point was that the per-barrel price of crude oil is controlled more by psychology than geology.

In other words: the current high(er) prices are caused by speculation, politics and taxes, not by any real oil shortage.

If it were a real shortage the real-dollar production cost of gasoline would be a lot higher than the < $1 a gallon it is now, even at a nominal cost of $50/barrel of crude.

Dr. Mordrid

[Wombat]

jesus what do you people have against car pooling with an SUV.

dont tell me taking 10 different cars is better.

90% of the time, that SUV has one or two people in it. Unless you're going to try to tell me with a straight face that that SUV never leaves the driveway with less than 5 people in it....

[Lizzard[MPE]]

Ricardos sister bought the SUV to drive around all her kids. They take the Lexus out when they arent a lot of people. SO yea i could say that.

[Lizzard[MPE]]

BUT i see your point. my brother used to own a Suburban. and most of the time it was just him in it. he just wanted to feel more powerful on the road due to he's a realestate agent and they all have some sort of power trip.

but that was years and years ago.