London again, terrorist...boom?

[RichL]

So group of unarmed, unidentified cops, operating on a do-not-apprehend, shoot-to-kill--target-the-head order of a TOTAL innocent doesn't qualify as a death squad?

That's stretching it more than a little.
The Police thought they shot a suicide bomber in order to prevent another blow up carriage full of passengers.
There could be some arcane and mysterious murder plot aimed at killing Mr de Menezes under the guise of mistaking him for a suicide bomber, but in the absense of evidence to the contary, I go with the first option.

Besides, like I said before, if the UK does employ members of the Police to go around murdering people for no apparent reason, then they're either extremely good at covering their tracks or more likely, they don't exist.

And if your Anti-Terrorism Law includes the same insane provisions as our Patriot Act, you never WILL hear about them.

I'm not sure what the Prevention of Terrorism Act says at the moment but the UK is a crowded place where everyone owns at least three mobile phones and civil liberties groups have to organise a shift system so everyone gets their go at complaining about their Human Rights. People vanishing off the streets or having mysterious fatal accidents is unlikely to be a common occurance simply because it'd be too difficult to keep it all quiet for very long.

[GNEP]

@Gurm: No it wasn't

[RichL]

@Gurm: No it wasn't

Maybe not, but don't you think that if three men claiming to be plain clothes Police challenged you outside a tube station, it might occur to you that this was something to do with terrorist bombs?

[GNEP]

Maybe not, but don't you think that if three men claiming to be plain clothes Police challenged you outside a tube station, it might occur to you that this was something to do with terrorist bombs?

Depends on your personal circumstances. And if you're white, and have something else to hide (eg an out-of-date visa, or a stolen VCR, or whatever) then maybe not.

Besides which, I am not entirely sure that these policepeople did say that they were police. We just don't know. So we wait for the official independent reports to come out.

[The PIT]

Depends on your personal circumstances. And if you're white, and have something else to hide (eg an out-of-date visa, or a stolen VCR, or whatever) then maybe not.

Besides which, I am not entirely sure that these policepeople did say that they were police. We just don't know. So we wait for the official independent reports to come out.

Agreed theres too many conflicting reports and none us were there. Lets wait for the report.

[xortam]

Weren't there original reports that the suspect confronted police? That comment quickly disappeared so it's now apparent that it was yet another example of overzealous reporting. We get news so quickly these days and much of it is inaccurate. Take what you read on breaking news with a grain of salt until some of the facts are checked out.

[RedRed]

Death squads.
In England.
Police Death Squads, no less. In England.
They must be pretty damn good if we've got them, I've lived here all my life and never heard of them. Or perhaps the government is really good at covering it all up. Hang on, theres a black helicopter landing outside...

Mr DeMenezes had been over here for three years and was apparently fluent in English and not an uneducated man.

The fear of police death squads in a busy London street in broad daylight angle isn't working for me. Perhaps you should try the gang rape angle again.

um.... not going to say much here, but....

The SAS HAVE carried out numerous 'death squad' missions in Northern Ireland and Gabralter - indeed the British assissinations in Gabraltar are carbon copies of the killing of Mr DeMenzes - 3 suspected IRA members simultaieous assisinated at close (10 feet) range - with multiple head shots as they were suspected of having remote activator for a bomb.

Also - it has not been clarified that the police actually issued a challenge OF ANY SORT- what would you do if 3-5 heavy plainclothed men were following you?

I think I might bolt - luckilly I dont have a tan.

[RedRed]

Y'know, I've had some more time to think about it, and I'll be a little softer here.

--------------------------------

If your primary intention, whenever political and/or current events discussions come up, is to immediately claim or try to get people to consider that it might be "corruption/malfeasance/evil" on the part of:

- The Police
- Government
- "The Man"
- Corporations

Then maybe you have a larger problem with authority. I know people like this. My pal Garrett is a great guy. Give you the shirt off his back. Funny, smart, a great dad. Made the best of the crap that life handed him. But EVERYTHING is "Bush's Evil Master Plan" or "A Government Coverup" or some garbage like that. EVERYTHING.

And that's exactly the logic that you've used here, BP.

Is it ok to try to get people to think that maybe the MSM isn't telling everyone the truth? Hell yeah - I've been saying for YEARS that the BBC isn't "fair and unbiased". Nobody listens, but I've been saying it anyway.

But it's NOT ok to make up wild stories to attempt to explain away what was a tragic but preventable mistake.

Stupid kids are stupid kids around the world. In EVERY country, if the police pull their guns and yell "stop", and you go "FVCK YOU, PIGS!" and take off running, you can EXPECT to be either beaten down or shot, depending on the climate.

So here you are, hours after the SECOND Islamic-motivated bombing in London, dressed strangely, carrying a large sack, and RUNNING FROM THE DAMN COPS. What do you EXPECT will happen?

Not everything is a government conspiracy. There are no "death squads". In broad daylight, gangrapes are rare if not unheard-of. Certainly, men stalking you for blocks and blocks, across a bus ride and into a train station... they're not death squads. They MIGHT be gangsters, but unless you have reason to fear the mob... why were you running?

Do I feel bad for this kid and his family? Sure. But he was STUPID. End of story.

Don't try to spin EVERYTHING into a government conspiracy/coverup. It's rabid liberalism and it gets you nowhere except mocked when (in the USA) 51% of the nation goes ahead and votes Republican ANYWAY.

Most of this even I agree with , Gurm (and based upon our histoy, thats something.... ) however a couple of minor points......
The police were plain clothed

second -
they do not appear to have actually said they were police

third
it wasnt a nice part of town (not REALLY, REALLY bad)- if you are getting followed - you might run

fourth
The police yesterday anounced that as far as suicide bombers were concerned - they do have a shoot to kill policy - what is in question is wether they challenged this young man apprpriately or not - in the UK (where most officers are NOT armed) - they have a specific form of words they must use to stop an individual - this is not necessarially going to be the case now - and that was official (possibly illegal too, under UK law)


I dont think anyone is crying consipiracy - just that the police ofrce has to run under specific guidelines - those are what stops us being a police state

[Gurm]

I dont think anyone is crying consipiracy - just that the police ofrce has to run under specific guidelines - those are what stops us being a police state

Yeah, I know. Sounds to me like SOME people, though - not you - are trying to make it into something that it wasn't - some sort of random "spree kill" by overexcitable police officers. We don't know enough yet, but I really highly doubt that.

[Umfriend]

Yeah, I know. Sounds to me like SOME people, though - not you - are trying to make it into something that it wasn't - some sort of random "spree kill" by overexcitable police officers. We don't know enough yet, but I really highly doubt that.

Maybe, but not in this thread. Take it to that place where they do.

[Gurm]

Maybe, but not in this thread. Take it to that place where they do.

Have you been READING this thread?

BP brought in the "lookit the po-po, out to kill da innocent man, gunnin' him down when he wuz afraid of they DEATH SQUADZ, YO!"

[RedRed]

rereading my post - how come I cant spell for toffee?????

[RichL]

um.... not going to say much here, but....

The SAS HAVE carried out numerous 'death squad' missions in Northern Ireland and Gabralter

SAS = Military.
Police = Not Military.
Suspected IRA members in Gibraltar = Actual, real IRA members in Gibraltar, who were well known.
IRA = Terrorists (or noble freedom fighters depending on your POV and proximity to a man in a balaclava with an armalite).


The British government does not, AFAIK, regularly have normal civillians assassinated.

[RichL]

Have you been READING this thread?

BP brought in the "lookit the po-po, out to kill da innocent man, gunnin' him down when he wuz afraid of they DEATH SQUADZ, YO!"

And Sasq invited him along specifically to post what he did, when the thread started in this forum.
So by inference, it's all good.

[Sasq]

yawn, bare with me, still more blood then coffee in my coffee stream.

Slightly off topic, but then again maybe not.
I do have a number of illegal friends here. most are involved for want of a better term the 'services' industry.
Do they run from the police, or immigration, no.
Do they run from the local version of the mafia if they have missed a protection payment. damn skippy.
Do illegals disappear if they have a loan with the above mentioned and miss to many payments. simply Yes.

was the man in question involved with the above - I got no idea, really don't.

The whole point of getting paul to mirror his post here - and it was a post created specifically for another forum - was hopefully so we could all go, 'hrm, maybe he had his own reasons for doing the bolt, regardless of if the police 'identified' themselves or not'

Every morning, I get on the same subways where Aum did the gassing a few years back - you know, 12 people dead, 5000 still with health issues, Aum is still active. is that what I think about every time I get on the train, no.

Was more bombings in the front of this guys mind that day? who knows, and we will never know, regardless of intentions, or orders, or rules, there is a man, lying on a cold slab with a toe tag. will we know the real reason why he bolted, probably never, but being an immigrant myself, I can understand there could be any number of reasons. Hell he might even of been hard of hearing, or had a head cold that was blocking his ears, didn't hear the police identify themselves.
Not the police's fault, and considering the area, not his either.

As I said, and will say again, I asked paul to copy that post, so maybe we could all sit back and think a little deeper about why someone would run. It was a starting point to discuss from.