London again, terrorist...boom?

[badpauly]

Have you been READING this thread?

BP brought in the "lookit the po-po, out to kill da innocent man, gunnin' him down when he wuz afraid of they DEATH SQUADZ, YO!"

Maybe you should have a read of what I have posted, without the blinkered view.

I have posted possible reasons, some of them backed up by others here, some of them backed up by external reports. I have also questioned the reports, as others have, from the police PR wing (and yes, the police do have a PR wing that generates most of what you read in the papers).

Your blinkered view does mean that you are seeing my posts as 100% left, and responding from the 100% right. And sadly you miss all that in the middle.

[badpauly]

Y'know, I've had some more time to think about it, and I'll be a little softer here.

If your primary intention, whenever political and/or current events discussions come up, is to immediately claim or try to get people to consider that it might be "corruption/malfeasance/evil" on the part of:

And that's exactly the logic that you've used here, BP.

Nope, nope and nope. It wasn't the argument. Keep readin.

Not everything is a government conspiracy. There are no "death squads". In broad daylight, gangrapes are rare if not unheard-of. Certainly, men stalking you for blocks and blocks, across a bus ride and into a train station... they're not death squads. They MIGHT be gangsters, but unless you have reason to fear the mob... why were you running?

When fear appears, logic goes out the window. And fear will have been in the mind of DeMenzes. Fear was also in the mind of my character.

Do I feel bad for this kid and his family? Sure. But he was STUPID. End of story.

How was he stupid? This is the exact reason I posted my story, to try and help those who are eating up the PR version of the story to see that not all is what it seems.

I've spoken to people who can't see past the initial report, and still think that De Menzies was wearing a bomb, was confronted by uniform police, and ran to detonate. It seems that you are not far from this view.

A spooked guy ran. He died. Why was he spooked? Dunno, but to die for it is wrong.

Don't try to spin EVERYTHING into a government conspiracy/coverup. It's rabid liberalism and it gets you nowhere except mocked when (in the USA) 51% of the nation goes ahead and votes Republican ANYWAY.

You are American aren't you? It shows.

[Gurm]

You are American aren't you? It shows.

Don't f***ing start with that bullshit. Just don't do it. I'll give you the space of one post to simmer the f*** down on that point. I'm sick and damn tired of pissant Eurotrash going "oh, you're American, THAT explains it all", as if their ****tarded backassward viewpoint is shared by the rest of the "right thinking" world and all of America is a bunch of ignorant jackasses.

You know what "shows"? It shows that you're a retarded mohawk-wearing tattoo nutjob from the UK underground. Gotta RESIST, man! Too bad the Clash aren't playing any more, best get hopping, I hear there's a Good Charlotte concert coming your way!

See, I can generalize too! ****tard.

[Gurm]

And by the way - let's be clear. The PRETEXT of your message is quite fine. No problems there. I have problems with the SUBTEXT, and the DELIVERY MECHANISM.

Do people need to think that there might be more to the story than meets the eye? Sure.

But a failed analogy about gang rapes, followed by postulation about death squads, isn't the way to go about it.

Couching it in barely-concealed loathing for the institutions of societal organization is also a poor subtext.

[Gurm]

I have just been informed, through the grapevine, that there are CULTURAL FACTORS at work in this disagreement!

I've been informed... that where BP comes from, gangrapes are relatively commonplace!

Hot diggety, man. That really sucks. You have to try to understand, given that piece of information, that the rest of the civilized world is NOT like that. New York, Paris, Tokyo, London... are big cities full of girls NOT getting gangraped.

So while you might view that little snippet as a "stock narrative", the rest of us see it and go "huh?"

Might as well replace "she was afraid of being gangraped" with "she was afraid of being torn apart by rabid cheetahs", that's kind of how we in places other than gangrapeland(tm) view it.

[Umfriend]

And by the way - let's be clear. The PRETEXT of your message is quite fine. No problems there. I have problems with the SUBTEXT, and the DELIVERY MECHANISM.

Do people need to think that there might be more to the story than meets the eye? Sure.

But a failed analogy about gang rapes, followed by postulation about death squads, isn't the way to go about it.

Couching it in barely-concealed loathing for the institutions of societal organization is also a poor subtext.

I don't think you got the point, even though you are an American. It strikes me that the initial post was not about gangbang rape (which, though a fantasy in this post, apparantly is a subject that causes a lot of emotions in here, I do wonder...) or death squads. The point was (AFAIK, lemme know if wrong BP): Is it conceivable that the guy had "normal" or "reasonable" reasons to run? If the example put forward was wrong, just explain why? I'll accept the guy was not scared of being gangraped, but again, that's not the point however much anyone likes to focus on gangrape. It's about having a fear making you run and, alas, it happens to be the Police you are running from.

Why is a post like that warranted? Well, some have an atittude like:

We're debating a tragedy that occured because the youth was terminally stupid.

How hard is it to understand - DO NOT RUN FROM ARMED POLICEMEN?

while simply, an offical statement on what happened had not been issued, in fact, what had been said officially so far had to be withdrawn furtheron (Ain't it weird how within hours the police claim to have killed a terrorist, but a report on how they killed an innocent man takes forever?).

BTW, BPs first mention of deathsquads was between quotes, Donnow what that means for others, but for me it means that he is referreing to dangerous guys, not neccesarily governement.

Oh, about everybody in London being obsessed with this bombing stuff, Gurm, GNEP lives there but could not convince you. I was in London last thursday only (and the leser one is there, the better he knows?). People in London do have other things on their mind.

[KvHagedorn]

Wow.. to think all this shit happened here without me even being involved.. amusing.

Having seen a real video (note that this means I am a direct eyewitness.. no media BS) of a man being taken behind a bus and murdered execution-style by Brazilian Police (it was either in Rio or Sao Paolo,) I can understand why a Brazilian might, as a reflex, run from the cops even if they identified themselves as such. The person I saw murdered was small, thin, and extremely compliant.. not some huge Rodney King guy on drugs being belligerent with the aired footage edited to remove everything HE did while focusing on the cops' justifiable response.

Is it possible that the media here has an agenda.. a point of view that they will favor when presenting the facts? Absolutely. In fact, it's a given. Liberal news pricks are directly responsible for the LA riots which took place as a direct result of their inflammatory editing of the Rodney King tape. If there was any conspiracy here, it was with reporters being reporters.

Shit happens in real life.. there was obviously a misunderstanding involved here, on one or both sides, and where stupidity can explain something, conspiracy is highly unlikely. No, there probably are NOT death squads roaming London.. and one can only hope that if there ARE, that they are not so twisted out of any sense by PC mania that they would only shoot white people as terror suspects out of fear of being labled racists.

You know, this is not nearly as bad as a story I remember reading about some kids playing Lazer Tag on some schoolground at night. Should they have been there? No. But they were, and some cop responded to the activity and saw a dark figure with what looked like a gun point it at someone and then saw a flash, so he pulled his weapon and blew away a 12yo kid. People are stupid, people are fallible. Especially in real life.

[Brian Ellis]

Besides which, I am not entirely sure that these policepeople did say that they were police. We just don't know. So we wait for the official independent reports to come out.

1. Can we trust an independent report to reflect the truth? I suggest not, judging from other "independent" reports that have been published in the past two or three years.

2. The independent report investigator will obviously ask the three cops whether they informed the victim as to their credentials. Do you really think they are going to say "No", even if they are on oath? And don't tell me that policemen never perjure themselves. Ask those from Guildford and B'ham. Ask at least 10% of those lying in unmarked graves in the graveyard of Pentonville with their neck vertebrae stretched.

3. As far as I can make out, the victim walked from the Tulse Hill apartment block to a bus stop, where he waited for a #2 bus to come along, took that bus to the tube station and only then did things come to a head. Why did it take the cops 15 minutes to act, when the whole thing could have been resolved long beforehand in a much less crowded place?

4. As the area was teeming with uniformed cops, some armed with very visible sub-machine guns, why did these three plain-clothes cops, purportedly charged with surveillance of the victim's residence, leave the place of their duty for 15 minutes, rather than simply report to the uniformed police that a suspect was walking to the bus stop, please apprehend? In the meanwhile, as they had left the area they were supposed to be covering, a whole army of terrorists could have left the building. For all they knew, the first one to leave could have been a decoy to draw off the cops so that the hot ones could escape the surveillance. I grant you this is very speculative.

5. I wonder how much the victim's family will be paid off with by the police, in return for silence (probably before the "independent" enquiry).

[RichL]

3. As far as I can make out, the victim walked from the Tulse Hill apartment block to a bus stop, where he waited for a #2 bus to come along, took that bus to the tube station and only then did things come to a head. Why did it take the cops 15 minutes to act, when the whole thing could have been resolved long beforehand in a much less crowded place?

Probably something to do with their surveillance operation. Follow him and see where he goes. Doubtless they decided letting a potential suicide bomber onto a tube train was too risky.

4. As the area was teeming with uniformed cops, some armed with very visible sub-machine guns, why did these three plain-clothes cops, purportedly charged with surveillance of the victim's residence, leave the place of their duty for 15 minutes, rather than simply report to the uniformed police that a suspect was walking to the bus stop, please apprehend? In the meanwhile, as they had left the area they were supposed to be covering, a whole army of terrorists could have left the building. For all they knew, the first one to leave could have been a decoy to draw off the cops so that the hot ones could escape the surveillance. I grant you this is very speculative.

Speculative is an understatement.
I've not seen one report that states uniformed police, armed or not, were on duty at Stockwell station, and even if some were, their first job would likely be to evacuate the area rather than chase after a man carrying a bomb. (GNEP, being local, might be able to advise us of how many uniformed police were hanging around the station before the event)
Likewise, there's no evidence the suspect residence was left unwatched.

5. I wonder how much the victim's family will be paid off with by the police, in return for silence (probably before the "independent" enquiry).

[RichL]

You are American aren't you? It shows.

And that flapping noise was your credability in this entire thread flying out of the window.

[GNEP]

I've not seen one report that states uniformed police, armed or not, were on duty at Stockwell station, and even if some were, their first job would likely be to evacuate the area rather than chase after a man carrying a bomb. (GNEP, being local, might be able to advise us of how many uniformed police were hanging around the station before the event)

That day, there were between 2 and 10 uniformed plods outside Stockwell (or at least in the foyer) at all times. We still have at least 2 there now (although that could be to manage the excitable Brazilian press...)

[KvHagedorn]

And that flapping noise was your credability in this entire thread flying out of the window.

ROFLMAO

[RichL]

That day, there were between 2 and 10 uniformed plods outside Stockwell (or at least in the foyer) at all times. We still have at least 2 there now (although that could be to manage the excitable Brazilian press...)

Curiouser and curiouser.

Depending on who's news reports you beleive is Bullshit (to quote BP), plain clothes police challenged Mr de Menezes in the station foyer. He then leapt the barrier and did a runner with uniformed police standing around.


Or, uniformed police stood idly by and watched three blokes with guns chased a man with a bag through the foyer, leapt the barriers and ran down towards the trains.

(For those unfamilar with British Police, most wear floursecent yellow jackets over black uniforms and frequently the tall conical helmet. They're about as visible as you can get without the use of disco lights.)

[Sasq]

Curiouser and curiouser.

Depending on who's news reports you beleive is Bullshit (to quote BP), plain clothes police challenged Mr de Menezes in the station foyer. He then leapt the barrier and did a runner with uniformed police standing around.


Or, uniformed police stood idly by and watched three blokes with guns chased a man with a bag through the foyer, leapt the barriers and ran down towards the trains.

(For those unfamilar with British Police, most wear floursecent yellow jackets over black uniforms and frequently the tall conical helmet. They're about as visible as you can get without the use of disco lights.)

and neither version sounds plausable.

I am off for a few days in the morning, just as a little project, do you and gnep wish to save off the news html pages, and forward them on. I am interested to put together a little timeline and how the story changes.

[GNEP]

I'll see what I can do. Also I have a nice scan from the Daily Mail - a friend took my advice and read a paper he didn't usually agreed with, to find an article that summed up some of his own thoughts fairly well. Dan what's your opinion on me posting the scan? (Copyright etc - AFAIK they have a rubbish website that has no news).