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  • #61
    WHY PARIS IS BURNING
    November 4, 2005 -- AS THE night falls, the "troubles" start — and the pattern is always the same.
    Bands of youths in balaclavas start by setting fire to parked cars, break shop windows with baseball bats, wreck public telephones and ransack cinemas, libraries and schools. When the police arrive on the scene, the rioters attack them with stones, knives and baseball bats.

    The police respond by firing tear-gas grenades and, on occasions, blank shots in the air. Sometimes the youths fire back — with real bullets.

    These scenes are not from the West Bank but from 20 French cities, mostly close to Paris, that have been plunged into a European version of the intifada that at the time of writing appears beyond control.

    The troubles first began in Clichy-sous-Bois, an underprivileged suburb east of Paris, a week ago. France's bombastic interior minister, Nicholas Sarkozy, responded by sending over 400 heavily armed policemen to "impose the laws of the republic," and promised to crush "the louts and hooligans" within the day. Within a few days, however, it had dawned on anyone who wanted to know that this was no "outburst by criminal elements" that could be handled with a mixture of braggadocio and batons.

    By Monday, everyone in Paris was speaking of "an unprecedented crisis." Both Sarkozy and his boss, Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, had to cancel foreign trips to deal with the riots.

    How did it all start? The accepted account is that sometime last week, a group of young boys in Clichy engaged in one of their favorite sports: stealing parts of parked cars.

    Normally, nothing dramatic would have happened, as the police have not been present in that suburb for years.

    The problem came when one of the inhabitants, a female busybody, telephoned the police and reported the thieving spree taking place just opposite her building. The police were thus obliged to do something — which meant entering a city that, as noted, had been a no-go area for them.

    Once the police arrived on the scene, the youths — who had been reigning over Clichy pretty unmolested for years — got really angry. A brief chase took place in the street, and two of the youths, who were not actually chased by the police, sought refuge in a cordoned-off area housing a power pylon. Both were electrocuted.

    Once news of their deaths was out, Clichy was all up in arms.

    With cries of "God is great," bands of youths armed with whatever they could get hold of went on a rampage and forced the police to flee.

    The French authorities could not allow a band of youths to expel the police from French territory. So they hit back — sending in Special Forces, known as the CRS, with armored cars and tough rules of engagement.

    Within hours, the original cause of the incidents was forgotten and the issue jelled around a demand by the representatives of the rioters that the French police leave the "occupied territories." By midweek, the riots had spread to three of the provinces neighboring Paris, with a population of 5.5 million.

    But who lives in the affected areas? In Clichy itself, more than 80 percent of the inhabitants are Muslim immigrants or their children, mostly from Arab and black Africa. In other affected towns, the Muslim immigrant community accounts for 30 percent to 60 percent of the population. But these are not the only figures that matter. Average unemployment in the affected areas is estimated at around 30 percent and, when it comes to young would-be workers, reaches 60 percent.

    In these suburban towns, built in the 1950s in imitation of the Soviet social housing of the Stalinist era, people live in crammed conditions, sometimes several generations in a tiny apartment, and see "real French life" only on television.

    The French used to flatter themselves for the success of their policy of assimilation, which was supposed to turn immigrants from any background into "proper Frenchmen" within a generation at most.

    That policy worked as long as immigrants came to France in drips and drops and thus could merge into a much larger mainstream. Assimilation, however, cannot work when in most schools in the affected areas, fewer than 20 percent of the pupils are native French speakers.

    France has also lost another powerful mechanism for assimilation: the obligatory military service abolished in the 1990s.

    As the number of immigrants and their descendants increases in a particular locality, more and more of its native French inhabitants leave for "calmer places," thus making assimilation still more difficult.

    In some areas, it is possible for an immigrant or his descendants to spend a whole life without ever encountering the need to speak French, let alone familiarize himself with any aspect of the famous French culture.

    The result is often alienation. And that, in turn, gives radical Islamists an opportunity to propagate their message of religious and cultural apartheid.

    Some are even calling for the areas where Muslims form a majority of the population to be reorganized on the basis of the "millet" system of the Ottoman Empire: Each religious community (millet) would enjoy the right to organize its social, cultural and educational life in accordance with its religious beliefs.

    In parts of France, a de facto millet system is already in place. In these areas, all women are obliged to wear the standardized Islamist "hijab" while most men grow their beards to the length prescribed by the sheiks.

    The radicals have managed to chase away French shopkeepers selling alcohol and pork products, forced "places of sin," such as dancing halls, cinemas and theaters, to close down, and seized control of much of the local administration.

    A reporter who spent last weekend in Clichy and its neighboring towns of Bondy, Aulnay-sous-Bois and Bobigny heard a single overarching message: The French authorities should keep out.

    "All we demand is to be left alone," said Mouloud Dahmani, one of the local "emirs" engaged in negotiations to persuade the French to withdraw the police and allow a committee of sheiks, mostly from the Muslim Brotherhood, to negotiate an end to the hostilities.

    President Jacques Chirac and Premier de Villepin are especially sore because they had believed that their opposition to the toppling of Saddam Hussein in 2003 would give France a heroic image in the Muslim community.

    That illusion has now been shattered — and the Chirac administration, already passing through a deepening political crisis, appears to be clueless about how to cope with what the Parisian daily France Soir has called a "ticking time bomb."

    It is now clear that a good portion of France's Muslims not only refuse to assimilate into "the superior French culture," but firmly believe that Islam offers the highest forms of life to which all mankind should aspire.

    So what is the solution? One solution, offered by Gilles Kepel, an adviser to Chirac on Islamic affairs, is the creation of "a new Andalusia" in which Christians and Muslims would live side by side and cooperate to create a new cultural synthesis.

    The problem with Kepel's vision, however, is that it does not address the important issue of political power. Who will rule this new Andalusia: Muslims or the largely secularist Frenchmen?

    Suddenly, French politics has become worth watching again, even though for the wrong reasons.
    P.S. You've been Spanked!

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    • #62
      The reason nothing has been done about this, indeed the reason it has happened, is a certain tendency by a certain group of people to yell "bigot" at anyone not wanting to just cede away their homeland to these invaders.

      This whole situation is proof that multiculturalism is a fool's ideal.

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      • #63
        P.S. You've been Spanked!

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by KvHagedorn
          The reason nothing has been done about this, indeed the reason it has happened, is a certain tendency by a certain group of people to yell "bigot" at anyone not wanting to just cede away their homeland to these invaders.

          This whole situation is proof that multiculturalism is a fool's ideal.
          you are using this situation to justify your own bigotry. multiculturalism isn't a bad thing - and it most certainly isn't the cause of the problem. it's the fact that they did not open their eyes to a movement that has been ongoing for decades. it's the fact that they didn't take terrorism that occured in several of their neighbor countries as a warning and look at the issue. it's the fact that they were making money off of Iraq, so when people took a stand against it they naturally defend it. it's the fact that they thought they wouldn't suffer any of the repercussions if they harbored these kinds of people and turned a blind eye to it.

          it was their own arrogance and refusal to look at a growing problem and take it seriously. you don't make a deal with the devil - ever. you alway send up loosing.

          it will be interesting to see how this changes things.

          edit: there can be a lot of parallels drawn between this and what we tried to prevent by invading Afghanistan. Al Qaeda had essentially taken over Afghanistan and would have been capable of executing this sort of take over on some of the neighboring countries, such as India. the intention of it was to deny their ability to gain a foothold in the middle east.

          it's interesting to see how this has spread. this is why you do not negotiate or barter with terrorists, no matter how decent they seem at the time.

          that being said... I very much could be overreacting to this. I just somehow doubt it with the scope and reach that Al-Q has.
          Last edited by DGhost; 5 November 2005, 01:23.
          "And yet, after spending 20+ years trying to evolve the user interface into something better, what's the most powerful improvement Apple was able to make? They finally put a god damned shell back in." -jwz

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          • #65
            P.S. You've been Spanked!

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            • #66
              Judging from the quotes here in the US press, it would seem that they are trying to brainwash US citizens into believing that the Paris problem is Islamic. It is nothing of the sort. It has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with poverty, overcrowding and unemployment, causing crime. This is not the first time this has happened in France and it probably won't be the last, as long as these French citizens are forced into second-class citizenship (or, in reality, about fifth-class). I regularly watch French-language TV from both France and Switzerland and I can assure you that religion is not a cause. What tickles me, in a tragic and inhuman situation, is that 2nd and 3rd generation French citizens are referred to in the American press as "immigrants", usually categorised as Muslim, while you see on TV a real mixture of blacks, Maghrebs and whites. Of course, most of the Maghrebs are Muslim, many of them from Algeria or Tunisia. Of course, the right-wing extremists are applying racism to the problems. Of course, Muslim extremists are jumping on the bandwagon to try and turn the situation to their advantage. But this is just extremism, the same as Islam is part of the so-called "war on terror" extremism perpetrated by the US media, distorting the truth by exaggeration.

              Just to take one example in the NY Post report cited by Schmosef. It cited the compulsory military service as being, in the past, a great levelling factor. But do you think immigrants would be taken into the French military? If I were young again and emigrated to the USA, would I, as a foreign citizen, be taken into the US Army? Of course not. Only French citizens were conscripted into the French army. These unfortunate people in the Paris suburbs are as French as Jacques Chirac; they are not immigrants and relatively few of them are practising Muslims.

              So please extract the anti-Islamic propaganda from the situation. One extremist shouting Jihad does not alter the situation.

              Incidentally, the last time I was in Strasbourg there were similar protestations with burnt cars and the CRS heavy-handed intervention and that was about 15 years ago: I bet the words Islam and Muslim were never mentioned then. I wouldn't like to be on the wrong side of the CRS, some of whom would make the most red-necked US cop seem gentle, in comparison.
              Brian (the devil incarnate)

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              • #67
                I think Brian, that you've missed the point of that article. They may well be French by birth, but they are not French by culture. They have no identification with French culture whatsoever. Who's fault is that? That's up for debate. I've always maintained that Western countries need to do more to integrate and assimilate new immigrant populations. That's not to say that immigrants bear no responsibility.

                Second and third generation immigrants who have no connection to native French culture?! That system is FUBAR'd! This situation has been coming for a long time.

                Further... re: Islam... we'll see.
                P.S. You've been Spanked!

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                • #68
                  It seems to me that part of the problem is that law was simply not upheld in those parts for a long time (I have not read about this as much as you did Brian). Where that happens people will, one way or the other, form their own "order" and yes, if you then come in with police you risk a lot of resistance even from people who would be better of under law than under local power. So the demand by a mulah to be "left alone" is actually a demand to let things be as they WERE.

                  I do not agree with the demand. Indeed, law should be upheld there like anywhere else. It a promise the frnach should make to the inhabitants of the ban-lieus in stead of leaving them to suffer for decades again of simply not caring about 5th-rate citisens.

                  Is this islamic though? Let's see. There is this group of people here, they call themselves Hell's Angels, who, well, traffic drugs, extort, rob and certainly have no respect for the law. When they were riduculed on a dutch TV show, the next eposide weas disturbed by some 20 hells angels and yes, they did punch some people on the face. Did I mention they kill?

                  Anyone who believes they shout allah akbhar in court raise their hand pls?

                  We have groups of people living in mobile home camps. They've not been paying taxes for YEARS becuase no inspector had the guts to go in there. No mosques, mullahs, alluah akhbars or anything. In fact, they talk dutch, look dutch and walk dutch, so I guess they are part of my ****ing tribe.

                  Sure, wherever there is a dynamic environment, people will rear their heads, islamics as well. But you risk ignoring most peoples reel feelings, problems and opinions simply because there a few ****heads running around. It may not be that much different from how the left stiffled any discussion by shouting "fascist" at any inappropriate time (and that has happen a lot in the 70s and 80s),

                  I have been to one such ban-lieu and I found it pathetic how people had to live their lives their. That was in 1987. Thing have not improved. I spit on those right-wing racists who now accuse them of being invaders while whining for 30 years about positive action while it is CLEAR from research that they were being discriminated against. These people speak french better than most here speak english, want to integrate and HAVE done so only to be looked down upon.

                  And the research is simple, it's not speculative and sensational gibberish about the police inspecting them but not the white french (which is true too) but simply things like sending the EXACT SAME LETTERS to apply for jobs, one with a name and address from the ghetto and one form "normal" areas.

                  This has been ignored by many many people who now shout this is all islamism. If they know so well now, how come they knew so bad yesterday? Or did they but simpyl not care about their compatriots? ****heads.
                  Join MURCs Distributed Computing effort for Rosetta@Home and help fight Alzheimers, Cancer, Mad Cow disease and rising oil prices.
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                  • #69
                    Whose fault is it that they have not integrated? If it's theirs, then why did they immigrate originally? (If you say 2nd or 3rd generation, that likely means their 40-50yo parents or grandparents are the ones who came over. Generations come quickly in poverty.) If it's the French government/people who don't want to accept them, why did they let them in in the first place? And why so many? A light rain might be beneficial, but a tidal wave just wipes everything out.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by schmosef
                      I think Brian, that you've missed the point of that article. They may well be French by birth, but they are not French by culture.
                      I'm sorry, but what justification have you for saying that?

                      I have never lived in France, but I have visited many parts of it countless times on business and have worked with Frenchmen of all shades. I've never come across any cultural differences within a given class. Why should there be when they were schooled in France, as were their fathers and possibly grandfathers (and maybe their great-grandfathers also, even if that was in the then-French Algeria)?

                      If you wish to find a cultural difference, look for the first-generation pieds noirs. These are the ex-colonials from N. Africa who ruled the roost there and were more or less forcibly repatriated to France when Algeria etc. were fighting for independence. These guys, usually ex-pats over 2 or more generations, despised Maghrebs and mainland French alike and were mostly extreme right-wing redneck types. They often established themselves in their own upper-class ghettos and they believed that France owed them everything for having been evicted from the land where they lived and acted like feudal lords. When they discovered that France wasn't giving them everything, some of them became politically and/or violently active (Jean-Marie Le Pen is an example of both) and totally obnoxious. My interlocutor at my agent's company was, strictly speaking, a pied noir, in that he was born in Algeria within such a family, but he was repatriated very young and assimilated the mainland ("France métropolitaine") culture at school and through his friends. We were close friends, having worked together for 15 years, and I often ribbed him because he disliked his father's attitude (I was even worse than a nigger in his father's eyes, being alien and because I motored in a Toyota and not a French car!).

                      I never saw anything like this in anyone of true Algerian or sub-saharan origin.

                      France is a very complex hotchpotch of cultures, even within the mainland (Basque, Breton, Burgundian, Savoyard, Languedocien. Provençal etc.) As such, it is able to meld them reasonably well and absorb some elements of foreign cultures (even languages, provided it is not English) into the general way of life. Just to take a banal example, probably 90% of Frenchmen going to the doctor's surgery would say he was going "chez le toubib", the latter being the Arabic word for a doctor.

                      Another point I would like to make is that the "forgotten" people of Clichy, Aulnay and other similar places are effectively disenfranchised, even though they have the vote. Why? Because the "circonscriptions" are cleverly rigged so that they are always a minority in each. There is not a single representative of them in parliament, white, black or anything in between, nor even in the local départemental governments.

                      If I were less cynical, I wouldn't say that this is in the country that gave the world the Charter of the Rights of Man.
                      Brian (the devil incarnate)

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                      • #71
                        Uh, Brian? Did you read the NY Post article all the way through? It speaks to just about every one of the points you've made...
                        P.S. You've been Spanked!

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                        • #72
                          With cries of "God is great," bands of youths...
                          This has not been reported in European media or seen on French, BBC, Swiss or Euronews TV

                          In these areas, all women are obliged to wear the standardized Islamist "hijab" while most men grow their beards to the length prescribed by the sheiks.
                          It is true a minority of Muslims in France do follow Muslim customs but this is a minority. I have seen more headscarves amongst Turkish women in Germany than N. Africans in France. I can't quote statistics, but my guess would be <20% of them.

                          more than 80 percent of the inhabitants are Muslim immigrants
                          This is simply a downright untruth. In the first place, the people in Seine-St Denis (département 93, where the troubles are) are mostly not immigrants but Frenchmen, born in Clichy etc., and in the second place, the majority are not Muslims or even of Muslim origin.

                          IMHO, these three quotes alone are showing a profound anti-Islamic bias, obviously designed to raise the anti-Islamic sentiments amongst the readers. Last night's Swiss Téléjournal 1930 had their reporter interviewing two of a band of about 10 youths at (I think) Aulnay. There were about equal numbers of whites, blacks and Maghrebs, give or take 1 or 2. The reporter was asking them how they lived (from hand to mouth). I thought it very significant that one of the N. Africans said that over the previous 24 hours, all he had had to eat was a ham sandwich: a good sign for a devout Muslim. He said he lived by his wits (read petty theft).

                          No, I'm sorry that, even though the report more or less said the same as I had already said, it had a very distinct anti-Islamic bias (which is not evident in Europe) which I interpret as propaganda for US consumption
                          Brian (the devil incarnate)

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Brian Ellis
                            This has not been reported in European media or seen on French, BBC, Swiss or Euronews TV
                            So? Maybe the media is trying to keep panic to minimum? Muslims love crying "Allah hu-Acbar" at any given chance.

                            It is true a minority of Muslims in France do follow Muslim customs but this is a minority. I have seen more headscarves amongst Turkish women in Germany than N. Africans in France. I can't quote statistics, but my guess would be <20% of them.
                            French joke: What's the first major Arab city you pass through on the Paris-Dakar Rally?
                            Answer: Marseilles.


                            This is simply a downright untruth. In the first place, the people in Seine-St Denis (département 93, where the troubles are) are mostly not immigrants but Frenchmen, born in Clichy etc., and in the second place, the majority are not Muslims or even of Muslim origin.

                            IMHO, these three quotes alone are showing a profound anti-Islamic bias, obviously designed to raise the anti-Islamic sentiments amongst the readers. Last night's Swiss Téléjournal 1930 had their reporter interviewing two of a band of about 10 youths at (I think) Aulnay. There were about equal numbers of whites, blacks and Maghrebs, give or take 1 or 2. The reporter was asking them how they lived (from hand to mouth). I thought it very significant that one of the N. Africans said that over the previous 24 hours, all he had had to eat was a ham sandwich: a good sign for a devout Muslim. He said he lived by his wits (read petty theft).

                            No, I'm sorry that, even though the report more or less said the same as I had already said, it had a very distinct anti-Islamic bias (which is not evident in Europe) which I interpret as propaganda for US consumption
                            Like you said Brian, you don't nor did live in France. I have close friends who do and did. They sing a whole different opera than you do.
                            "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Algerian Group Calls France Enemy Number One. PARIS, Sept 27 (AFP) - An
                              Algerian Islamist organisation, the Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat (GSPC),
                              has issued a call for action against France which it describes as “enemy number one”,
                              intelligence officials said Tuesday.

                              “The only way to teach France to behave is jihad and the Islamic martyr,” the group’s
                              leader Abu Mossab Abdelwadoud, also own as Abdelmalek Dourkdal, was quoted as saying
                              in an Internet message earlier this month.

                              “France is our enemy number one, the enemy of our religion, the enemy of our community,”
                              he was quoted as saying.

                              France was mentioned 15 times in the text, and the Algerian government was also
                              targeted, the officials said.



                              This did not start as a Religious issue but it will end up that way. The ROP (Religion of Peace) Jihadists will take advantage of the
                              momentum caused by the riots and turn this into something a whole lot uglier than it already has become.
                              "Never interfere with the enemy when he is in the process of destroying himself"

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                But I did live a stone's throw from the French border, in a French-speaking country, for 35 years. In that time, I probably crossed the border 500 times, mostly staying about 4 or 5 days each time, on an average.

                                I presume your allusions are to anti-semitism in France. A good potted historical background at http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...cle.asp?ID=228
                                gives some good info. It shows that it is fomented at the highest levels of Government.

                                Ironically, I suggest you wouldn't be living where you are, today, if it weren't for French establishment anti-semitism: it was the Dreyfus affair that inspired Herzl to start the Zionist movement!

                                Yes, anti-semitism is a problem, especially in the Marais quarter of Paris, and I collected some hatred accounts from last year:
                                A 14-year-old boy wearing a yarmulke came out of the Our metro station and was followed by two young men. They called him a "dirty Jew" and robbed him in front of a crowd of witnesses. The men knocked the boy down, beat him on the head and broke his nose. The boy begged for help from passers-by, who simply walked away.

                                In central Paris, a teacher from a Jewish school was beaten up by young men, who ripped the Star of David from the teacher's neck and trampled her. They called her a "dirty Jew" and lit her hair on fire. They also told her, "We're going to burn all you Jews."

                                A group of four young men interrupted a class in the auditorium of the University Medical School of Saint-Antoine in Paris. They yelled, "We're going to kill all the Jews" and, "We're armed and we're going to take you all down."

                                When a Jewish student confronted the men they beat him and robbed him. The professor who was teaching the class said nothing and the men walked out without a care while the class looked on in silence. The dean of the University has been told of the situation but has not yet responded.

                                On the walls of the Rue Des Rosiers (in the Marais, the Jewish quarter), once again there are signs of the Star of David in yellow paint accompanied by the slogan, "And don't forget the showers of Zyclon," referring to the gas used in Nazi death camps.

                                Also in Paris, a 12-year-old girl coming out of a Jewish school was attacked by two men. They beat her, held her down and slashed her face with a box cutter. They carved a swastika into her face and walked away. Her parents have filed a police report.

                                A swastika carved into the face of an innocent Jewish girl proves how anger directed at Jews in France has moved beyond mere hate-speech and racist vandalism. The symbols of hate have jumped from desecrated tombstones and subway walls to the actual skin of Jews.
                                Not one of these acts appears to have perpetrated by Muslims, but all by right wing thugs, as was the desecration of the synagogue in the rue des Rosiers (must be 15 or 20 years ago, can't remember when). It wasn't a Muslim who dismissed the Holocaust and the Nazi death camps as a "little incident". It wasn't a Muslim who was jailed for five years because she was a revisionist who claimed that the death camps never existed. It wasn't Muslims who sent over 100,000 French Jews to their death, nor was it Germans. It was full-blooded Frenchmen and Frenchwomen who did all these acts, mostly members of right-wing Catholic organisations, if they weren't simply what we would call skin-'eds today.
                                Brian (the devil incarnate)

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