French veneer peeling a bit?

[Dr Mordrid]

Looks like they have a major problem brewing;

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/10/31/france.riots.reut/index.html

Dr. Mordrid

[schmosef]

3 in rioting in suburb of Paris get jail terms

Sarkozy says that violence in French suburbs is a daily fact of life.

Since the start of the year, 9,000 police cars have been stoned and, each night, 20 to 40 cars are torched, Sarkozy said in an interview last week with the newspaper Le Monde.

Veneer just 'peeling'? I'd say it's gone!

Tell me WTF is going on while I pick my jaw up off the floor.

[Dr Mordrid]

Simple;

Europe as a whole has a low birth rate and has to make up the shortage in the work force by letting in immegrants.

Not too bad in itself as it brings in new blood, but it can play hell with the existing culture (usually a big concern for the French) and in these days of Muslim extremeism not a good idea without legal safeguards against incitement such as the UK is now implementing post-bombing.

Unfortunately for the French (and others in Europe) their politically correct nature has allowed the wildcat out of the cage and they're going to play hell getting it back in.

Just ask the Dutch about what happened to Theo van Gogh.

Dr. Mordrid

[schmosef]

Yeah that was a rhetorical question.

I guess I'm just shocked by the scale of it. If that statistic is true--20 to 40 cars are torched each night--then they've got serious social problems in France and have absolutely no business trying to dictate foreign policy to America or internal security strategy to countries like Israel.

We certainly have our problems, but I don't think that there are cities that bad in Canada.

How about the US? Is the situation described in that Paris suburb similar to suburbs of major US cities?

[Dr Mordrid]

Oops...night 5 in Paris;

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/11/01/051101054304.gpxunwd2.html

About the biggest disturbances we've seen of late have been;

1. after a sports team wins/loses a championship, and even these are toning down significantly.

2. when campus cops try to tone down frat beer/beach parties. Alcohol and common sense do not co-exist very well in anyone, much less college students.

3. racial provocations. There was a mini-riot of sorts in Ohio recently, but that was caused by a neo-Nazi group trying to stage a march in a black neighborhood. This only involved 100 or so people and lasted a few hours.

The Nazi's got what they wanted, a disturbance in a black neighborhood, then bugged out of town to save their skins.

Chickensh**t's.

4. when the anti-corporate/environmental leftists protest economic conferences and use it as an excuse to tear the town apart (ex: Seattle a few years ago).

This has been pretty much shut down by their being scheduled in remote and private locations.

That said the potential is always there in places like LA etc. if the cops over-react to a small incident (Rodney King beating) or if you have agitators trying to make their bones, but I've not seen anything like what's going on in Paris.

Dr. Mordrid

[Brian Ellis]

France has its problems just now, often fomented by Jean-Marie Le Pen and his NeoCon henchmen. Now Sarkozy is showing that he has been listening to him and taking a tough line. This will no go down well with the French who have always, since 1789, considered they had the right to demonstrate. Don't forget the student riots of May 1968, which went through the whole of W. Europe in various degrees of intensity. And these and the Commune riots had nothing whatsoever to do with racism or even, in a way, with politics - they were just people wanting their pretended rights.

However, France is not alone. The UK sporadically has similar incidents and so do many other countries. In fact, I would say that there isn't a single so-called democratic country in the world that has never had some form of violent civil disturbance. So it might be better not to look at the mote of sawdust in any one country's eye if one cannot see the wooden beam in one's own.

[KvHagedorn]

"Being able to buy lots of stuff and not marrying a guy unless he is a rich model and certainly then not having more than 1 of his kids is almost as important as the right to murder your unborn child."

A culture with this petty, selfish attitude is doomed. And any culture that lets in so many immigrants is doubly doomed.

[DGhost]

"Being able to buy lots of stuff and not marrying a guy unless he is a rich model and certainly then not having more than 1 of his kids is almost as important as the right to murder your unborn child."

A culture with this petty, selfish attitude is doomed. And any culture that lets in so many immigrants is doubly doomed.

wait. are you talking about America now? how did we jump to that topic?

[KvHagedorn]

Isn't it the same in every western country now?

[Umfriend]

Uhm, no.

[Brian Ellis]

"Being able to buy lots of stuff and not marrying a guy unless he is a rich model and certainly then not having more than 1 of his kids is almost as important as the right to murder your unborn child."

A culture with this petty, selfish attitude is doomed. And any culture that lets in so many immigrants is doubly doomed.

[rant] Don't be so bloody racist! At times, you are downright disgusting.

Do you need reminding that the country where you live is mainly peopled by immigrants? I don't think that KvHagedorn is likely to be descendant of Geronimo or Sitting Bull. You should have a little more modesty as an unwelcome immigrant intruder in a country which has been constrained to welcome you by force. The original culture of the land let you in, not because you were welcome, so I guess you must be the cause of a double dooming of that culture. I hope you are proud of yourself. [/rant]

[Dr Mordrid]

You don't even have a clue about what's going on here....

If you took a poll among even the native/hispanic populace in the US one thing you'll discover is that most of them are as hot about what's happening at our southern border as the rest of the population.

Example: the Mexican govt. is encouraging the border problem to the point of some of their Federales (Mexican Federal Police) attacking US border guards who are on station in our territory. Several times they have even crossed the border to do so.

No bull, just fact. This has gotten so bad that several Governors of southwestern states, including former UN Ambassador Bill Richardson (Democrat) who is now the Gov. of New Mexico, have declared border emergencies in their states.

Uppance: NO racism involved, just the recognition that Mexico is abusing the privelidge of a relatively open border. If this doesn't get settled down pretty darned soon there'll be a 15' wall from California to the Gulf.

Dr. Mordrid

[schmosef]

France has its problems just now, often fomented by Jean-Marie Le Pen and his NeoCon henchmen. Now Sarkozy is showing that he has been listening to him and taking a tough line. This will no go down well with the French who have always, since 1789, considered they had the right to demonstrate. Don't forget the student riots of May 1968, which went through the whole of W. Europe in various degrees of intensity. And these and the Commune riots had nothing whatsoever to do with racism or even, in a way, with politics - they were just people wanting their pretended rights.

However, France is not alone. The UK sporadically has similar incidents and so do many other countries. In fact, I would say that there isn't a single so-called democratic country in the world that has never had some form of violent civil disturbance. So it might be better not to look at the mote of sawdust in any one country's eye if one cannot see the wooden beam in one's own.

hmm...

although i agree with you re the tone of KvH's post. I find it hard to understand what you are trying to say.

Rather than resort to increasingly subjective labels like neocon, etc., maybe you can better describe your specific criticism of these players.

I also have to say that I reject what seems to be your assertion that there exists a moral equivalence to the riots and demonstrations of the past to what is going on today in France. The demonstrations of the past were about fighting to improve society. I don't think that's what the rioters in France have in mind.

[KvHagedorn]

Brian, in a microcosm.. imagine a stranger just deciding to move into your home and live there, eating your food and letting you pay his expenses.. all the while thinking that somehow this should be just fine and dandy with you. He could be a bloody Scot who looks just like you, for that matter, but in this case he's an Algerian who hates you and thinks you should live your life according to his culture's ideals. Would you just sit there and do nothing, paying his way and taking his insults? Well you'd better, because if you stand up for your own rights, you're a RACIST!

[schmosef]

Yeah KvH,

But what if you invited him? What if you needed him to work those low wage jobs that neither you nor your neighbours want to work? Now, to continue the analogy, he was supposed to respect the rules of your house. He's not. That's the problem. And further what if you didn't do enough to ensure that he'd learn the value of those rules? To him the just seem arbitrary and unfair.

I think that our society has to decide to do more to assist the absorption of foreigners. Not just let them in and be thankful that they'll work for peanuts.

Also, we need to agree that our culture is of at least equal value to theirs and that they SHOULD be required to learn it.