French veneer peeling a bit?

[Brian Ellis]

This did not start as a Religious issue but it will end up that way. The ROP (Religion of Peace) Jihadists will take advantage of the
momentum caused by the riots and turn this into something a whole lot uglier than it already has become.

Yes, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[Umfriend]

Yes, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

So do I. And they will be supported in realising this by the xenophobic right-wing racist crew as well. Funny how "bitter enemies" succeed at the expense of normal people like me and most inhabitants of the ban-lieus.

[KRSESQ]

If I were young again and emigrated to the USA, would I, as a foreign citizen, be taken into the US Army? Of course not.

You would be mistaken. You would be accepted into the U.S. military, provided you had applied for U.S. citizenship. This happens quite often. I'm not even sure if the citizenship application is a cast-in-stone requirement.

Regardless of whether they were born in France or elsewhere, these troublemakers are disenfranchised and impoverished with no hope for a better future. This is the climate within which Islamic radicalism flourishes. The worse their circumstances, the worse their radicalization is likely to be. The greater their numbers, the bolder they become.

Sorry if I'm repeating anything that's already been said. The fact remains that this is going to be possibly the biggest problem we have to face in this century. If education and economic empowerment and cultural assimilation fail to solve it, what is left?

As to extreme right-wing or neo-nazi violence and anti-semitism, I say break out the shootin' irons and have some target practice.

Kevin

[Dr Mordrid]

Non-citizens can enlist in the US military, but cannot re-enlist unless they become U.S. citizens. That said after three years the residency requirements for US citizenship can be waived.

For enlistment purposes the "United States" includes Guam, Puerto Rico, U.S. Virgin Islands, the Northern Marianas Islands, American Samoa, Federated States of Micronesia and the Marshall Islands.

Citizens of certain countries may require a waiver to enlist. This countries would include those considered hostile to the United States.

As far as the French situation is concerned, most analysts now agree that the "hothead" phase ended on the third night. Since then it's become evident that outsiders are involved and that the organizers are in fact a jihadist/gangster keiretsu.

Whatever the cause or who is involved now IMO France is on the verge of either a civil war or an intifada.

Dr. Mordrid

[KvHagedorn]

Whether or not one characterizes this as a cultural or islamic problem, since poverty-stricken native French are involved and supposedly cloud the issue, if the same resources had been spent only on the native poor from back in the 60s, rather than also having to deal with a massive influx of foreigners, said poor would have had better conditions, and would at least have retained their identity so as to allow them to move up in class, rather than be forced to become part of this lawless underworld.

Every person of a foreign-Islamic culture living there is now being used as part of the critical mass to get this thing going and demand their foothold in the quest to take over Europe. If it was not evident before, it should be now, to even the most breezy-headed social liberal idealist. Well, perhaps not. I know some of you and many many more will just sit and say it is only an economic problem, etc. etc. Whatever. If this is true, why don't you get up out of your comfortable armchairs and take these people all your money? They would thank you, behead you, and buy some guns with it. This has been a brilliant move. They have used your social-liberal PC tendencies against you and made you traitors to your own. It's truly pathetic.

[TransformX]

Brian, you were wrong on one little account..
I didn't mean or speak of anti-semitism as many of my familie's friends in France are Catholics. They too have a problem with many of the non-integrating immigrants and they hate the fact that they wouldn't dare setting foot in some of the parts of their own capital.
The French also love arguing that their society and culture managed winning against everything and integrating anyone. Last time I've argued it with them, they weren't as certain about it as they were a few years ago.

[Brian Ellis]

They have used your social-liberal PC tendencies against you and made you traitors to your own. It's truly pathetic.

Sorry, you still haven't twigged the cause. The problem is that France, even when it had a so-called socialist parliamentary majority under François Mitterand, is governed largely by a fairly extreme-right Catholic minority. Their attitude is to bolster anyone of their own class and to consider all others, and especially non-Catholics, as not worth bothering about. This is why you have regular bouts of anti-Protestantism, anti-semitism, anti-Islamism, anti-socialism, anti-etc. The fault is nothing to do with "social-liberal PC tendencies" because they don't exist in these circles.

The only people that are occasionally strong enough to resist these guys are the numerous trade unions and their only weapon is the right to strike, which they use regularly for the benefit of their own members, not for the general oppressed. From time-to-time, the unions show a united front against this or that proposal, such as the changes in the pension schemes that are currently hot and the government/parliament then have to bow before the wind to find a compromise. Note that when Mitterand was President and there was a socialist government/parliament, the trade unions were just as active, if not more so, than today.

En résumé, France has probably the most oppressive right-wing rule than any other country in W. Europe, including Austria, which is noted for its xenophobia.

KvH, it's a pity that you haven't travelled more and seen what happens in other countries, instead of having pre-conceived notions which are often coloured by bad media reporting.

[KvHagedorn]

The fact remains, if they weren't there, they would not be rioting, now would they?

[Brian Ellis]

Brian, you were wrong on one little account..
I didn't mean or speak of anti-semitism as many of my familie's friends in France are Catholics. They too have a problem with many of the non-integrating immigrants and they hate the fact that they wouldn't dare setting foot in some of the parts of their own capital.
The French also love arguing that their society and culture managed winning against everything and integrating anyone. Last time I've argued it with them, they weren't as certain about it as they were a few years ago.

This is not unique to France/Paris: there are quarters in London, New York, Washington DC, LA, Birmingham, Coventry, Rome, Naples, Aberdeen, Moscow, Hong Kong, Manilla etc., etc., etc. where I would feel very unsafe if I set foot in them. I agree with you that French "integration" is superficial.

However, one aspect of the problem that we haven't evoked in this thread is that, if the poor of Département 93 are fifth-class citizens, there is also a tenth-class semi-citizen or non-citizen: the vast numbers of illegal immigrants and asylum-seekers. The French haven't a clue how to handle this problem and I would opine that many of the militant Islamists probably belong to this category. At the best, they overcrowd the asylum-seekers into 250-year old, 8-storey slum buildings, scheduled for demolition, so that right wing thugs can "accidentally" set light to the wooden staircases, killing tens of them at a time, often women and children. As these people have no rights, the escapees can mourn their losses in the street.

[KvHagedorn]

The solution is SEND THEM HOME.

[Brian Ellis]

The solution is SEND THEM HOME.

They ARE already HOME, can't you get it? They would be more of a misfit if you sent them to where their grandfathers came from than you would feel if the USA sent you to Dresden or wherever your forebears came from (which is probably full of Turks).

Actually, coming to think of it, a year in Germany would probably make you a lot more human because it would make you realise the world is MUCH bigger than the little state called Texas and most of it thinks differently from you

[TransformX]

However, one aspect of the problem that we haven't evoked in this thread is that, if the poor of Département 93 are fifth-class citizens, there is also a tenth-class semi-citizen or non-citizen: the vast numbers of illegal immigrants and asylum-seekers. The French haven't a clue how to handle this problem and I would opine that many of the militant Islamists probably belong to this category.

I'm afraid they'll soon have no other choice but call the French equivalent of the American National guard like they did quite a few years ago. Problem with such an action is that open demonstrations will be silenced down and the frustration will become more 'creative', like bombing the metro etc.

At the best, they overcrowd the asylum-seekers into 250-year old, 8-storey slum buildings, scheduled for demolition, so that right wing thugs can "accidentally" set light to the wooden staircases, killing tens of them at a time, often women and children. As these people have no rights, the escapees can mourn their losses in the street.

That's pretty much what has happened with Turks in Germany some years ago.

[Umfriend]

Brian, you were wrong on one little account..
I didn't mean or speak of anti-semitism as many of my familie's friends in France are Catholics. They too have a problem with many of the non-integrating immigrants [...]

Then they know little about these imigrants. They speak french better than the russian and etheopian jews immigrated to Israel fcol. They have a better education on average then the "native" french of same economic background and similarly and far lower chance to get invited to a job interview than their worse educated "real white native" french competitor.

Hell, they'd be accused of not integrating as their own fault even if they converted to catholisicms. Something you might have some sympathy for given the anger you spouted against the spanish for considering converting jews second rate "new christians" late 15th century.

[Dr Mordrid]

The authorities just found a bomb making factory just south of Paris. So much for Brians nonsense of this being economic.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20051106/D8DN0R7O0.html

IMO this kind of facility shows that the rioting is organized and likely has been from a much earlier stage, regardless of what the French authorities say.

To think otherwise is to have ones head in the sand up to the knees, and the French in particular are noted for this kind of stupidity.

Dr. Mordrid

[schmosef]

So far we've been debating the causes for this current crisis. I'd like to hear some ideas for a solution...

It's funny, I was just going to toss out a few ideas to help start the dialog, but then I realised all my ideas are predicated on knowing the cause of the current problem.

I guess the French government has got a big problem on their hands.