French veneer peeling a bit?

[TransformX]

Then they know little about these imigrants. They speak french better than the russian and etheopian jews immigrated to Israel fcol. They have a better education on average then the "native" french of same economic background and similarly and far lower chance to get invited to a job interview than their worse educated "real white native" french competitor.

Hell, they'd be accused of not integrating as their own fault even if they converted to catholisicms. Something you might have some sympathy for given the anger you spouted against the spanish for considering converting jews second rate "new christians" late 15th century.

When was the last time you took a walk in Paris? The arabs in Jaffa sound and look more French than some of the people I've seen in the Metro. I've been to some of those neighbourhoods and trust me, they aren't half as integrates as the Russians and the ethiopeans here. If you'll check the latest news, the French government is now speaking to Imams = Religious leaders of the community. This shows above all that there is no political activist / leader they could speak with.

[Sasq]

The authorities just found a bomb making factory just south of Paris. So much for Brians nonsense of this being economic.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20051106/D8DN0R7O0.html

IMO this kind of facility shows that the rioting is organized and likely has been from a much earlier stage, regardless of what the French authorities say.

To think otherwise is to have ones head in the sand up to the knees, and the French in particular are noted for this kind of stupidity.

Dr. Mordrid

"Police said 349 people had been arrested, including six youths caught stockpiling 90 Molotov cocktails in a disused police building south of Paris."

Just to put the bombs in perspective, but yes, there is someone somewhere pulling strings and helping incite this. The real problem is who exactly?
As usual 'les miserables' are being used as pawns to further the cause of someone else

[KvHagedorn]

They ARE already HOME, can't you get it? They would be more of a misfit if you sent them to where their grandfathers came from than you would feel if the USA sent you to Dresden or wherever your forebears came from (which is probably full of Turks).

I already addressed this. You are the one who doesn't get it. I was addressing the asylum seekers you referred to anyhow. Nothing says any European country has to accept them, at least no law that could not be overturned for the sake of SURVIVAL. What you are doing by saying they are home is just propaganda. They don't belong there, and their only purpose there is to create a critical mass for the Islamists to use in taking over. The Turks don't belong in Germany, either. I've heard their arguments "Oh, but I don't WANT to go back to Turkey.. I have 6 kids here and social benefits etc." No shit Sherlock.. I really am sick to death of listening to what these people want, especially when it is to the detriment of the host country in which they were only supposed to be "guest workers" anyhow.

Actually, coming to think of it, a year in Germany would probably make you a lot more human because it would make you realise the world is MUCH bigger than the little state called Texas and most of it thinks differently from you

No wonder the world is so screwed up. Sad that so many there really have as little common sense as armchair Euroliberals such as yourself.. sadly, as a result Europe's days are numbered.

[KvHagedorn]

So far we've been debating the causes for this current crisis. I'd like to hear some ideas for a solution...

It's funny, I was just going to toss out a few ideas to help start the dialog, but then I realised all my ideas are predicated on knowing the cause of the current problem.

I guess the French government has got a big problem on their hands.

Draft everyone into the military and eject every Muslim by force. I know the majority has done nothing actively, but their presence and tacit loyalties are the greatest danger there is.

[Sasq]

and this is why people, we do not have to fear KvH propagating himself in the genepool

[DGhost]

No wonder the world is so screwed up. Sad that so many there really have as little common sense as armchair Euroliberals such as yourself.. sadly, as a result Europe's days are numbered.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

I would really, really love to see you go do something about half of the shit you talk about. you always seem to know the answers, yet you have yet to prove that you are willing to do anything about the problems.

no, there are lots of reasons the world is ****ed up. one of them is that there are a shitton of people who are willing to tell everyone else what they should be doing when they are not even willing to do it themselves.

[Umfriend]

When was the last time you took a walk in Paris? The arabs in Jaffa sound and look more French than some of the people I've seen in the Metro. I've been to some of those neighbourhoods and trust me, they aren't half as integrates as the Russians and the ethiopeans here. If you'll check the latest news, the French government is now speaking to Imams = Religious leaders of the community. This shows above all that there is no political activist / leader they could speak with.

1999, and not to the suburbs, that's true. The point that you fail to address though is that it does not matter how much they adapt to french culture similarly to what a lot of jews experienced in various parts of europe in various ages. I hear a fatwa against the violence has been issued btw.

And yes, cartainly, when one is not accepted by society one forms his own. It's not just muslims. 20 years ago in our capital there was an area which was basically a no-go area for the police. The mayor got spit on when he visited it. The people there burned a police station after one of there mates died in a police cell. Not turks, maroccans or whatever. White. Pure Dutch. Students and working class losers. You know, punks, many with painted hair, fake-leather jackets with metal pins sticking out, bracelets, Dr. Martins or whatnot kind of boots etc. Clearly "unadjusted" people. (I guess since we can't send them "home" and we don't like them we should just shoot 'm?)

I've heard their arguments "Oh, but I don't WANT to go back to Turkey.. I have 6 kids here and social benefits etc."

I am kinda tired of generalisations like these. I know turks that have two kids and contribute more to the world then some others I won't name. I actually know a maroccan that was trying so hard to get a job that he accepted the first job he could get, below his capacity, just to get out of social benefit. He was sick and tired of that shit.

IMO, the french are right in being strict. It's gone out of hand for far to long. I would just hope that they stay there to uphold the law and protect the lawabiding citisens over there as well.

[schmosef]

Debkafile Special Report - France’s Ramadan Uprising - a Ticking Bomb for Europe

The violent riots spreading across France took several worrying directions Sunday night, Nov. 6, and Monday. The mostly Muslim gangs of youths began surging out of the immigrant suburbs to invade town centers; they fired their first gunshots at policemen; the number of torched cars peaked to 1,400; and disturbing new slogans were hurled, depicting Paris as ”Baghdad-on-the Seine” and their campaign as the start of Europe’s Ramadan Intifada.

A single slogan made a mockery of president Jacques Chirac’s efforts of the last three years to distance France from President George W. Bush’s Iraq war. Furthermore, the French government’s helplessness in quelling the trouble is encouraging other European communities to follow suit - in Denmark, Belgium, Spain and Sweden, for starters.

Chirac, after lying low for 10 days, finally called an emergency security meeting in Paris Sunday, Nov. 6. He then promised arrests, trials and punishment for those who “sow violence or terror” across France. But politics as usual held him back from instituting tough measures or naming those responsible for the violence, let alone deploying the necessary forces. French police are still under orders not to open fire unless fired on first. No names have been released of ringleaders despite several hundred arrests.

Saturday, Nov. 5, as the disorders went into their second week, the French prosecutor-general Yves Bot said he had detected an organized hand and a strategy behind the riots. Witnesses reported vehicles without number-plates distributing petrol bombs. A fuel bomb factory was in fact discovered Sunday in Paris with 150 bottles and gallons of gasoline ready to distribute to the bands of arsonists. Also found there were masks to hide rioters’ faces. In Clichy-sour-Bois, where the accidental electrocution of two teenagers in flight from the police ignited the first protests, residents said: This is just the beginning.

There are plenty of indications that the riots are not simply spontaneous outbursts of frustration by disadvantaged youths of North and black African descent, but centrally organized mayhem, an “intifada” activated by Muslim networking.

The Chirac-de Villepan government, trying to live down interior minister Nicolas Sarkozy’s provocative pledge to deal with what he called “scum,” is not acknowledging this. Because they refuse to recognize the rampage for what it is, they are withholding the forces required to restore order and so letting the danger get out of hand. Police, firemen and paramedics are no match for a fast developing civil war. The army will have to be brought in at some point, preferably sooner rather than later. For a start, marksmen need to be posted to pinpoint the ringleaders and the bottle-bomb wielders targeting cars, schools, shops, warehouses and public buildings.

France’s leaders, like the British and Dutch, are clinging to the hope that sympathetic dialogue with moderate Muslims will calm the street, despite all the evidence that radical, activist Muslims do not heed established Islamic authorities. On Nov. 6, the Union of Islamic Organizations in France, UOIF, issued a fatwa forbidding Muslims to seek “divine grace” by blindly attacking private and public property and urging meditation and calm.

The following night, bands of marauding Muslim youths extended their areas of attack from outlying city districts to urban centers and started shooting at police officers.

The controlling hand, far from being legitimate Muslim authority, is beginning to emerge as the very organization that has for several years been recruiting young fighters in French Muslim ghettos fight al Qaeda’s wars against the West in Afghanistan, Bosnia, Iraq and other sectors.

On February 20, 2004, DEBKA-Net-Weekly and DEBKAfile were first to reveal the extent of al Qaeda’s penetration of West Europe. They turned up French intelligence statistics which estimated that “al Qaeda had recruited in France between 35,000 and 45,000 fighters and was organizing them in military-style units. They meet regularly for training in the use of weapons and explosives, combat tactics and indoctrination and are controlled from local and district command centers under the organization’s national French command.”

“In Germany, Al Qaeda’s numbers are estimated at 25,000 to 30,000 men.”

To read the original article, click HERE

Today, French counter-terror sources are willing to admit, albeit on the quiet and not for attribution, that those clandestine terrorist cells may well be at the bottom of the current riots. They note the history of the Palestinian uprising, which kicked off in 1987 with stones and petrol bombs, only to evolve into a suicidal terrorist war by the late nineties. They fear this process may be beginning - not just in France but in the rest of Europe too, that the covert nucleus of trained and indoctrinated Islamic terrorists al Qaeda buried inside Europe is being turned against the continent, starting in France.

Debka is well connected in the international intelligence community. Especially on issues relating to terrorism. According to them, this could be the start of a whole new front in the WOT. Scary, really scary.

[schmosef]

"Marauding youths" in France shout "Allahu Akbar"

In this video, starting at about 8:32.

Not that this has anything to do with Islam, of course.

[Umfriend]

Debkafile Special Report - France’s Ramadan Uprising - a Ticking Bomb for Europe


Debka is well connected in the international intelligence community. Especially on issues relating to terrorism. According to them, this could be the start of a whole new front in the WOT. Scary, really scary.

What intellignce community? The on ethat assured us Iraq had WMD? That Soddem was having an alliance with AQ? That IC? Oh, ok.

I am deeply concerned here. As ALBPM stated, it will become a religeous issue. And it's not only the islamo-fascists work, they are helped. I am concerned by the total ignoring of factors we know from the past can lead to uprisings, which are not islamo-fascist and which may well explain a big chunk of the background of this revolt.

FWIW, yes, in the Netherlands, we do try and keep in dialogue with the muslim community. And it's a good thing IMO. That does not mean that islamo-fascism isn't fought.

[Jammrock]

I think the US needs to ship over some of their non-lethal riot control weaponry and start zapping the $#!* out of the Paris rioters.

The first casualties of the riots was recently reported as well. I man was trying to put out a fire and was beaten to death.

[Brian Ellis]

S**T! I prepared a longish quick reply and when I pressed submit, it came up with an error. I tried to Back to resubmit it and it had gone. Haven't got the time to retype it, sorry

[GNEP]

I think it's all Arthur Scargill's fault.

[Dr Mordrid]

The social aspect is the fault of the French socialist system.

The tax/regulatory system required to maintain this 19th Century relic has all but ruined their economy (and many others in Europe with the same or similar leanings). Look at any measure of economic activity and this becomes plain to anyone with open eyes.

Result: slow job growth, which results in high unemployment, esp. among the young.

This creates frustration and makes these kids willing cannon fodder for the professional agitators who have been running things since day 2 of the riots, be they Islamist or organized crime (BTW: they often work together, esp. as regards the drug trade)

This kind frustration will grow to include older workers when the inevitable collapse of the "nanny state" makes it necessasry to cut social benefits, esp. to older workers who are making up an ever increasing pool of non-producers.

IMO this could cause a major decline in Europe, perhaps moving it into a lower plane of econmic activity behind North America and Asia in particular.

Dr. Mordrid

[ALBPM]

It's all Bushes fault

Uh,....What's a Paristinian???