French veneer peeling a bit?

[Umfriend]

Uhm Doc, a *real* Socialist would of course argue that this is caused by the french system being to capitalistic and laissez-faire (and might point at the few violent uprisings the US have experienced in the past).

I'm predicting major riots in China and India within 20 years.

[ALBPM]

Here's something similar about to happen in the LA area. This can happen in the U.S. as well. It will be in the large Metropolitan Cities like LA, NYC, Chicago...etc..

Why in the big U.S. Cities - because they have disarmed the Law Abiding Public in the big cities in the U.S..

Today, here in Los Angeles, we are already seeing ominous signs of an impending social explosion that will make the French rebellion by Muslim and immigrant youths seem "tame" by comparison. All the ingredients are present including a hostile and racist police as in France.

http://www.aztlan.net/french_muslim_rebellion.htm

[ALBPM]

[schmosef]

Dry Bones:

Intifada (1989)

On a Friday in December 1987 four Arabs in Gaza died in a traffic accident involving Israelis. Youthful Palestinian demonstrators then took to the streets using the accidental deaths as a rallying cry, which confused Israelis. "What did the traffic accident deaths have to do with anything else?"

My guess is that lots of people in France today are trying to figure out how the accidental deaths of two youths has turned into the current madness and violence.

The above cartoon was done a year and a half after the start of the Palestinian "Intifada". At that point we still could only shake our heads in disbelief at the "insanity".

We did not understand that in a few years the Intifada would evolve into the shooting of children in the arms of their Israeli parents, suicide bombings of our buses, of pizzerias, and the lynching and murder of our civilians. At the time of this cartoon we Israelis were as confused about what was really going on as today's French men and women are.

[UtwigMU]

Umm, what does Gaza have to do with France?

[schmosef]

Umm, did you read the quoted text?

[UtwigMU]

Well, one could draw parallels about both cases being postwar immigrants taking over/have taken over some country .

(feeling a bit provocative today)

[schmosef]

Eh tu, UtwigMU?

[Umfriend]

LOL. As I see it, that was more about oppresion/liberation/freedom type of riots (but what do I know?). The kind I'm expecting have to do with a clash between have-nots and an establishment "representing" the have-s. I am more optimisitc on Inida though.

[Nowhere]

One thought: when it comes to rioting/burning of cars, the French should get German ones

[Dr Mordrid]

Interesting article on French/European economics;

Mona Charen

11/11/2005

Syndicated columnist/analyist Washington, DC

Through a combination of socialism at home and appeasement abroad, the French believed they had found a viable alternative to, in former Prime Minister Lionel Jospin's phrase, "jungle capitalism," as practiced by you know who. Jacques Chirac was more direct, condemning "ultra liberal Anglo-Saxon" economic policies, while also famously boasting that France would anchor a European pole in a "multipolar" world, with American influence vastly reduced. With 300 French cities in flames, French pretensions lie singed and shriveled.

By "ultra liberal" Chirac of course meant free market, not liberal in the American sense. American liberals are equivalent to European socialists. And French socialists have set the table for the current crisis. Yes, the rioters are all Muslim youths from North Africa and the Middle East. And the racism of French society may fuel the flames to some extent, but the most important factors in this story are economic. The French have accepted wave after wave of immigrants with no prospect of employing them. In the U.S., the unemployment rate among natives and immigrants is the same. Not so in France.

The French have enacted all of the economic policies that liberals would like to see implemented in this country. So, for example, jobs are protected. If a French company employing more than 600 people wants to fire someone, it must endure administrative procedures that last an average of 106 days. Because it is so difficult to fire employees, French companies are less willing to take risks in hiring. This hurts young, inexperienced workers disproportionately. Once unemployed, 40 percent of French workers can expect to remain so for more than a year. Not only are jobs hard to find, but joblessness is softened by generous benefits. Unemployment benefits range from 57 to 75 percent of the worker's last salary and can last as long as three years (with a cap of 5,126 Euros per month).

The French boast of (and American liberals drool over) France's 35-hour workweek. But French economic growth slowed to 0.1 percent in the second quarter of 2005 and is unlikely to reach 2 percent for the year. American economic growth, by contrast, was 3.8 percent in the first quarter of 2005. Payroll taxes are higher in France than in any of the other 30 nations in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.

Writing in The American Enterprise magazine, Olaf Gersemann estimates that per capita income in the U.S. now exceeds that of France by 40 percent. The French unemployment rate is more than 10 percent -- 21.7 percent among 15- to 24-year-olds, and reportedly as much as 40 percent among Muslim youths.

NOTE: in the US the unemployment rate is just 5%)

Since the 1970s, Europe has created only 4 million new jobs. The U.S. has created 57 million in the same period. Some Europeans may be enjoying their short workweeks and lavish paid vacations, but many others, particularly immigrants, cannot find jobs at all.

And welfare, while generous, does not quell the unrest -- it stokes discontent. Immigrants who cannot find jobs, particularly young males from traditionalist Muslim societies, need dignity as much or more than comfort. Yet French society, with its rigid socialist economy and intrusive state, lacks the engine that can provide jobs -- a vibrant private sector.

But socialism is an insidious poison. The vast majority of French voters seem wedded to their government-supplied goodies -- failing to recognize that their economic and therefore social lives are unraveling because of that dependence. When they rejected the proposed EU constitution last summer, most French voters told pollsters they were worried about losing welfare benefits and trade protections.

The cars aflame in French cities now underscore the dangers of economic stagnation. The French have imported a small army of socially, culturally and economically estranged young men. These Muslim men would have been difficult to assimilate under the best of circumstances. But in a sclerotic, socialist state, where the prospect of jobs and economic advancement is so remote, the task becomes titanic.

So, Monsieur Jospin, which economic system deserves the prefix "jungle"?

[Brian Ellis]

An article full of half-truths that are even contradictory. For example, if unemployment benefits are so generous, capped at €5,162 (>$6,000) per month, how come the US per capita income, with its millions of poor who may not see $6,000 in a year, is 40% higher? And, of course, there are also the downright lies (propaganda for US consumption) that the malaise is 100% Muslim and that France has the highest payroll taxes (some of the Nordic countries are MUCH higher).

Journalese.

[Dr Mordrid]

You misunderstand the US benefit system greatly. Welfare incomes vary by state, but can easily go over $20,000 year not counting the value of Medicaide benefits, food stamps and the low income housing discount at many apartment complexes (co-ops etc.).

Granted those who are able bodied are required to take part in "workfare" (job training programs) and are frequently limited as to how long they can be on welfare (this varies state to state), but it's nowhere near as dire as you purport.

In fact many you see on the streets that draw the ire of European documentarians are actually elegible for benefits but choose not to apply for them. Can't help those who don't want it

A very large percentage of these homess persons are also mentally ill but the liberals in our midst forced the passage of laws back in the '70's taking away the States ability to put them into public institutions so they could be cared for and put on proper meds.

Most now go un-medicated because of this lack of supervision. No small nuber of these are now self-medicating with cocaine and other street drugs, and we know how they get the resources to get their fixes.

Wonderfull....

There are also SSI and SSD; social security programs for the infirm or disabled. With SS programs many checks can be issued: one for the primary beneficiary and one for each minor dependent until they are 18.

Dr. Mordrid

[Umfriend]

Uhm, over 20k a year is still, uhm, short of 2k a month..... Moreover, secondary benefits you mention are available in France as well on top uf unemployment benefits. Finally, since in the US welfare only lasts so long, is there any incentive to stay registered as unemployed? In France you _need_ to be registered as such and that will in fact explain a few percentage points difference in unemployment.

It can't be denied that GDP is growing faster in the US than it is in France and most other (close to all or all) western-european states and that the same goes for per-capita GDP.

The picture changes quite a bit when you look at the per-capita GDP of, say, the 40% lowest-income part.

What is another difference however is that, AFAIK, in the US many people at the "bottom" of society believe they live in a country where they can "make it" or that they can significantly influence their own situation. The social security system in France is more of a buy-off: You don;t get a job as it threatens people currently employed and we'll (the working part) pay you (out of taxes raised on working part) to accept this and shut up. Problem is, in reality, not many people actually like to be on SS and lack any promise of improvement.

[Dr Mordrid]

Poverty level in the US is ~$15k a year, and in many locales you can do pretty good on $20,000 a year as long as you aren't shooting it up your arm or nose.

In the US we now have "workfare"; enforced job training for those able bodied on welfare. There are also numerous job training programs under the Federal unemployment insurance program, which is a whole separate benefit package from welfare or social security. Workfare also comes with child care benefits etc.

Another aspect of the US welfare system are called "Credits" and are part of the Income Tax code. These target those with dependent children and/or low incomes. Basicaly you fill out an income tax return and if your income falls below the poverty line (or often even if it doesn't) you get the credit, meaning you get a refund check even if you didn't make enough to actually pay any income taxes.

These credits include the EIC (earned income credit), CCC (child care credit) and the CTC (child tax credit). EIC covers those with low incomes, providing money to supplement said income. The CCC gives a credit based on income and child care expenses. The CTC is an allotment of up to $1000 per child. All of these can be paid in the "Advanced" mode, meaning you get it on your paycheck instead of on your tax return.

Now much can this add up to? Back when I was first disabled and not getting disability benefits we were getting federal income tax refund checks of almost $6,000, and that was long before Bush introduced the Child Tax Credit.

Yes, the Dems were in control of Congress for 40+ years, often with Dem presidents and veto-proof majorities, and it took Republicans to pass such a bill

There are a bewhildering number of other benefits from various state and federal agencies, but basically if a low income person can't find some benefit package or other to get onto it's not the governments fault.

One example is in Michigan where on the state income tax return low income households can get a home heating credit, among others.

Dr. Mordrid