If there are no baggetts, eat sh*t.

[schmosef]

And don't give me another "whatever".

I'm being honest in my assertion of personal interpretation. If you don't agree with my interpretation, then that's fine, but don't tell me I'm trying to say something I'm not or denying what is obviously true.

Don't Judge, Lest you Be Judged

Isn't about threatening retributive "judging". It's about "walking a mile in someone else's shoes". It's "don't judge" because you obviously don't know the whole story and wouldn't appreciate someone judging you with so little real understanding. It's not about trying to create false moral equivalence.

[Umfriend]

Uhm, somehow my reply did not make it into the database...

OK, we simply view the article differently but we do agree on a certain tactic to be wrong (correct?). I'm fine with that. It's not exactly what I understood to be another Israel defenders' take on the article, but that is someone else.

I never gave you a whatever BTW., unless you have two nick on this forum. Nor did I put words in your mouths. Not sure why you would accuse me of that...

Anyway I'm ff to bed and my English sucks

[schmosef]

moral relativism is a bad tactic. absolutely agreed.

i don't think that's what this guy was doing. if it was, he's an idiot.

btw, your tone has been a little off putting lately. i might have misinterpreted some of your meaning. my bad.

[Umfriend]

Nah, it's my lack of English. Seriously, if I came off strongly, it may have been becuase I had some history in this thread already before you joined.

[SpiralDragon]

Spiral: think Neil Young (unless I completely misunderstand the song)

lol....

[Nolicorice]

Loosely translated from an israeli news site (news.walla.co.il), originally by Gil Cole (in Hebrew):

I'm not sure I get this article or the debate that's going on here in this thread.
But if the author really thinks: "The actions againt the security forces, burning of schools and post offices are legitimate forms of protest against the institutions of an opressive government. Those schools are a tool for pro-wester, neo-colonist, capitalist and anti-muslim indoctorination which only serves to perpetuate the economic gap and the ethnic and religious discrimination."
If that's the case, then he's an idiot! This statement only adds to the perception of Islam as violent religion - as many westerners already perceive Islam, much due to 9/11 and it's aftermath. And that won't exactly help integration or improve the lives of many of those living in the suburbs of Paris.

I admit that integration of "new citizens" in many european countries doen't work, or at least very poorly. That's what, in large, causes these social problems.
These "new citizens" have a hard time finding work etc, and are left feeling frustrated, unwanted and without hope for the future. That creates an excellent base for crime and terrorism. This is a serious problem that needs to be addressed.

Politicians have the means to make some much needed changes, but I also believe the reality is that these "new citizens" must make more of an effort too.
The reality is that not even the best education will help you get a good job if you: Don't speak the language properly; look, act and dress differently; have a name that's hard to pronounce.
In the best of worlds we would all embrace new cultures; we would jump at the opportunity to get to know new and different people. But let's face it - we don't live in the best of worlds, nor will we ever do.
If "new citizens" doesn't want to change and adapt to their new country, fine no one says they have to, but then they have to accept the cold, harsh truth of reality.

If there is any correlation between the "new citizens of Europe" and Arabs in Israel (or whatever the previous debate has been about), I do not know. I do know (or I'm utterly convinced) that there will never be peace in Israel/the ME.

[TransformX]

I'm not sure I get this article or the debate that's going on here in this thread.
But if the author really thinks: "The actions againt the security forces, burning of schools and post offices are legitimate forms of protest against the institutions of an opressive government. Those schools are a tool for pro-wester, neo-colonist, capitalist and anti-muslim indoctorination which only serves to perpetuate the economic gap and the ethnic and religious discrimination."
If that's the case, then he's an idiot! This statement only adds to the perception of Islam as violent religion - as many westerners already perceive Islam, much due to 9/11 and it's aftermath. And that won't exactly help integration or improve the lives of many of those living in the suburbs of Paris.

What he mant to do is to use the same cheap demagogy and show it works both ways.

I admit that integration of "new citizens" in many european countries doen't work, or at least very poorly. That's what, in large, causes these social problems.
These "new citizens" have a hard time finding work etc, and are left feeling frustrated, unwanted and without hope for the future. That creates an excellent base for crime and terrorism. This is a serious problem that needs to be addressed.

Politicians have the means to make some much needed changes, but I also believe the reality is that these "new citizens" must make more of an effort too.
The reality is that not even the best education will help you get a good job if you: Don't speak the language properly; look, act and dress differently; have a name that's hard to pronounce.
In the best of worlds we would all embrace new cultures; we would jump at the opportunity to get to know new and different people. But let's face it - we don't live in the best of worlds, nor will we ever do.
If "new citizens" doesn't want to change and adapt to their new country, fine no one says they have to, but then they have to accept the cold, harsh truth of reality.

If there is any correlation between the "new citizens of Europe" and Arabs in Israel (or whatever the previous debate has been about), I do not know. I do know (or I'm utterly convinced) that there will never be peace in Israel/the ME.

Question should be asked: Why does the media tells us about muslim and north-african riots, yet none is heard about Indian, Chinese and other 'new citizens' living in France?
Does it mean the French government treats those better than those, or maybe it says something about the muslims and north-africans more than it speaks of the French?
As some might know, there are large populations of Asians (either Inidians, Chinese etc) in many European countries, yet we always hear about arabs, muslims and North Africans doing bad things, claiming people owe them things, demanding more religious rights etc.

edit: To clarify (if still needed) - some Asian countries were raped almost as badly as some African countries, yet you don't see Asians blowing up busses, planting bombs or starting worldwide terror organisations. It's also interesting to note that in a large percentage of terror activity, the same name pops: "el Gamaa Islamia". What makes them better than everyone? Why should a muslim be treated any better than a buddhist, hindu, or a confucian?

[Nolicorice]

What he mant to do is to use the same cheap demagogy and show it works both ways.


Question should be asked: Why does the media tells us about muslim and north-african riots, yet none is heard about Indian, Chinese and other 'new citizens' living in France?
Does it mean the French government treats those better than those, or maybe it says something about the muslims and north-africans more than it speaks of the French?
As some might know, there are large populations of Asians (either Inidians, Chinese etc) in many European countries, yet we always hear about arabs, muslims and North Africans doing bad things, claiming people owe them things, demanding more religious rights etc.

To be honest, the Asian populations are nowhere near (in numbers) the Arab populations in Europe. (At least not in northern Europe.)
To answer your question: Either you can argue there's a conspiracy whithin the media to bad mouth muslims and north-africans - but who would really believe that? Or you can argue that muslims (doing bad things or not) are less willing to adapt to their new environment, instead trying to impose their ways on the new environment. The last alternative being a lot closer to home for me...

edit: To clarify (if still needed) - some Asian countries were raped almost as badly as some African countries, yet you don't see Asians blowing up busses, planting bombs or starting worldwide terror organisations. It's also interesting to note that in a large percentage of terror activity, the same name pops: "el Gamaa Islamia". What makes them better than everyone? Why should a muslim be treated any better than a buddhist, hindu, or a confucian?

Have no idea, I'm with you on this one.

[TransformX]

To be honest, the Asian populations are nowhere near (in numbers) the Arab populations in Europe. (At least not in northern Europe.)

If we go for the 'opressed minority' excuse some use, asians would have much more to complain about being a minority of the minorities