Iran caught smuggling fake ballots....

[schmosef]

http://forums.murc.ws/showthread.php?goto=lastpost&t=55153

...

Regarding the issue of finding an exact count... Jews on the Eastern front were often not sent to extermination camps. They were dealt with on site. Usually by drowning or mass burial. They would tie two people together, stand them up on a high bridge or at the edge of a burial pit, and shoot one of them. The one who wasn't shot would be pulled down with the one who was and either drowned or was buried alive.

Records on the Eastern front are sketchy too. The German logs would say something like "occupied village x. 'Special treatment' administered to all Jews", which meant that the Jews were killed. But without a count of how many Jews had lived in the village or how many were killed, the official record keepers would count that village are 2 Jews, thus satisfying the plural "Jews". This was done on purpose so that no one could legitimately claim that the numbers were distorted.

[schmosef]

Although I would disagree with the notion that there is no room for discussion, I find debating this issue distasteful. There's simply too much information readily available that disputes the hoax claim.

Further, the hoax claim is used to attack Israel's legitimacy. Anyone who knows the history of the UN partition vote or the subsequent history of Israel and how little Western support it has received over the years knows that the Holocaust is not as big a factor as is hyped.

[Mehen]

Well, I think I've found enough to satisfy my question as to whether the number is accurate or not, and agree with you that if anything it IS understated.

I did feel obligued to question it though as I am sure you can fully understand. Something that is normally just accepted as fact needs to be questioned now and again to truly reinforce that it is indeed fact. I still think that denial of the holocaust as a criminal offence is pretty extreme though.

edit: I don't think even 'denial' is the right word, more of just a questioning of the accuracy

[KvHagedorn]

I thought it was 6 million people. Among those were gypsys, homosexuals, communists, etc., though the majority were, yes, Jews. But wait.. what about the 20 million people killed by Stalin? The forced famine and gulags took care of them.. wonder why no one ever does a TV movie decrying these murders? I suppose if there were any Ukrainians running the media companies here, they would.

Concerning Islam, let's just say if one wanted to start an Arab nationalist movement and take over 3/4 of the Mediterranean world, a smart idea would be to climb a mountain, claim to have spoken to God's messenger, and write out some dogma instructing the "faithful" to kill everyone else, with a core of fanatic zealots to kill anyone getting out of line with blasphemy as an excuse.

"Deborah Lipstadt, author of Denying the Holocaust, insists that there is not and cannot be a debate on the Holocaust. In a few countries, including France and Germany, those who express dissident views on this issue are treated as criminals." yikes!

PC Fascism. They begin the destruction of free speech with things that are taboo to speak about in the first place, so people will fear to oppose them. Any such thing based on fear and denial of freedom, however, is a towering menace that MUST be opposed in the early stages by the people or it cannot be opposed without war. Same thing happend in the 30s in Germany.

[Dr Mordrid]

You won't see many movies about the "other holocausts" because they were perpetrated by socialist states (USSR, China etc.), and far too many in media are sympathetic to socialist theology. About the only major studio effort was "The Killing Fields" which documented the Cambodian holocaust, and that was 21 years ago.

Let's also not forget that term NAZI is a short form of the German (NA)tionalso(ZI)alismus (National Socialism)

AKA: German National Socialist Workers Party

Dr. Mordrid

[Helevitia]

To me, it doesn't matter if it was 600 or 6 million. The fact is, human beings were tortured, mamed, murdered, burned, slaughtered, etc...

Absolutely horrible

[KRSESQ]

My niece's husband, who is a Christian palestinian (naturalized American) is perfectly willing to acknowledge that 6 million Jews were exterminated by the Third Reich, but wants to know why, with so many other mass murders committed throughout history, they should be treated so special. I finally came up with at least a partial answer for him. It wasn't just the numbers killed. It was the cold, methodical, mechanistic, soulless way the Nazis did it. They wiped out multiple generations and entire family lines with all the passion with which an exterminator would wipe out a nest of rats, because that's exactly what they believed they were doing. Add to that the "scientific" and "medical" "experimentation" they subjected their victims to and it boggles the mind. No wonder the poor schlubs who deny it or distort the numbers can't wrap their minds around it. Unless you're talking about genuine neo-Nazis, to whom Hitler was the victim, in which case you might as well save your breath and your sanity.

Kevin

[schmosef]

There are a lot of different reasons why this instance of genocide is so well documented.

Without getting into all the ways to approach this I'd have to say that in many senses, WWII was a wake up call.

We, as a species, cannot afford to do this to each other any more. The scale has just grown too big.

What troubles me is that recent genocides in Kosovo, Rwanda, Darfur hardly generate any interest. For what was the sacrifice of the Greatest Generation if we haven't learned our lesson?

[Mehen]

plus it helps take the focus away from all the murders happening everyday in the US.

[Wombat]

Why is this in a thread about Iraqi voting again?

[schmosef]

must be a jewish conspiracy...

[Mehen]

because I'm trying to get my post count up!!

[schmosef]

plus it helps take the focus away from all the murders happening everyday in the US.

I hear that crime and violence perpetrated by Native gangs is pretty bad in Winnipeg. True?

[schmosef]

PWC++

[Mehen]

It is, but it is concentrated to the North End of the city as well as parts of downtown. I have gone to the Law courts on a few occassions with school and every single case that I've sat in on has involved a Native and some sort of substance abuse or events that happened to someone that has a history of it. It is pretty sad

edit: I think we have one of, if not the highest murder rate per capita in Canada.

edit2: alcohol probably leads to a very depressing percentage of deaths here