Saudi Arabia - Denmark, a love story?

[DukeP]

It was a live broadcast, so no. Give it a few minutes to appear on the net.

I thought everybody knew Mr. Cain.

Anyhow, he represented the US government, and he looked a bit like a cross between MIB and Mr. Smith (the matrix).


~~DukeP~~

[Wombat]

I can't find anything about Sen. John McCain & Denmark yet.

[schmosef]

oooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh... McCain! Not Mr. Cain.

McCain is a good guy.

[Dr Mordrid]

Sen. McCain is one of the several frontrunners for the Republican presidential nomination for 2008. Others include former NYC Mayor Rudy Juliani, Gov. Mitt Romney of Massachusetts, Sec. of State Condi Rice and Sen. George Allen of Virginia.

IMO a ticket with either McCain or Juliani at the top and Condi Rice or George Allen for VP would be very strong.

Todays breaking news;

1. Iran has cut off relations with Denmark over the 'toons

2. Iran is removing all the cameras and seals put in place by the IAEA

Dr. Mordrid

[Jammrock]

Sen. McCain is one of the several frontrunners for the Republican presidential nomination for 2008. Others include former NYC Mayor Rudy Juliani, Gov. Mitt Romney of Massachusetts, Sec. of State Condi Rice and Sen. George Allen of Virginia.

IMO a ticket with either McCain or Juliani at the top and Condi Rice or George Allen for VP would be very strong.

I can see McCain as the Rep. presidential canidate, and maybe Juliani, but not the others. Romney is Mormon, and considering it's hard enough for a Catholic to be elected, Romney doesn't stand a chance. Rice, not be racist/sexist, won't win because it's hard enough get a non-white or a female in the White House (on the ticket at least), the combo will prevent her from being president. Don't know anything about this Allen guy, which says enough about his chances.

I can see a McCain/Juliani alliance as Pres/VP. If Hilary becomes the Dem nominee I can see a McCain or Juliani match with Rice as the VP canidate.


ahem ... back to the topic at hand.

I wonder *who* is inciting the riots. I doubt the average Muslim cares enough to mass and riot about some cartoons. Is it the clerics and/or the extremists blowing this whole thing out of proportion?

[schmosef]

From Dhimmi Watch...



Hirsi Ali: 'Everyone Is Afraid to Criticize Islam'

One of the most courageous women of our age, and one whose lovely visage immediately refutes the silly and stupid canard that opposition to the jihad supremacist ideology is "racism," speaks truth to power in Der Spiegel:

SPIEGEL: Hirsi Ali, you have called the Prophet Muhammad a tyrant and a pervert. Theo van Gogh, the director of your film "Submission," which is critical of Islam, was murdered by Islamists. You yourself are under police protection. Can you understand how the Danish cartoonists feel at this point?
Hirsi Ali: They probably feel numb. On the one hand, a voice in their heads is encouraging them not to sell out their freedom of speech. At the same time, they're experiencing the shocking sensation of what it's like to lose your own personal freedom. One mustn't forget that they're part of the postwar generation, and that all they've experienced is peace and prosperity. And now they suddenly have to fight for their own human rights once again.

SPIEGEL: Why have the protests escalated to such an extent?

Hirsi Ali: There is no freedom of speech in those Arab countries where the demonstrations and public outrage are being staged. The reason many people flee to Europe from these places is precisely because they have criticized religion, the political establishment and society. Totalitarian Islamic regimes are in a deep crisis. Globalization means that they're exposed to considerable change, and they also fear the reformist forces developing among émigrés in the West. They'll use threatening gestures against the West, and the success they achieve with their threats, to intimidate these people.

SPIEGEL: Was apologizing for the cartoons the wrong thing to do?

Hirsi Ali: Once again, the West pursued the principle of turning first one cheek, then the other. In fact, it's already a tradition. In 1980, privately owned British broadcaster ITV aired a documentary about the stoning of a Saudi Arabian princess who had allegedly committed adultery. The government in Riyadh intervened and the British government issued an apology. We saw the same kowtowing response in 1987 when (Dutch comedian) Rudi Carrell derided (Iranian revolutionary leader) Ayatollah Khomeini in a comedy skit (that was aired on German television). In 2000, a play about the youngest wife of the Prophet Mohammed, titled "Aisha," was cancelled before it ever opened in Rotterdam. Then there was the van Gogh murder and now the cartoons. We are constantly apologizing, and we don't notice how much abuse we're taking. Meanwhile, the other side doesn't give an inch.

SPIEGEL: What should the appropriate European response look like?

Hirsi Ali: There should be solidarity. The cartoons should be displayed everywhere. After all, the Arabs can't boycott goods from every country. They're far too dependent on imports. And Scandinavian companies should be compensated for their losses. Freedom of speech should at least be worth that much to us.

[schmosef]

Protesters besiege Danish embassy in Tehran

TEHRAN (Reuters) - A crowd of about 400 demonstrators threw petrol bombs at the Danish embassy in Tehran and tried to break into it on Monday night in a protest over the publication of cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammad.
To chants of "God is Greatest" and "Death to America" the crowd tried to break down the metal gate entrance to the embassy, which sits behind a high wall in a residential district of northern Tehran, a Reuters correspondent said.

Riot police fired teargas to disperse the crowd but at least three protesters managed to scale the barbed-wire topped wall and get into the compound.

The embassy had been evacuated ahead of the pre-announced protest organised by the Basij, a volunteer militia affiliated to Iran's hardline Revolutionary Guards.

Several dozen petrol bombs were hurled at the premises, but only a handful of which went over the wall. The flames were quickly doused by firemen at the ready nearby.

Danish diplomatic missions have been set ablaze and ransacked in Syria and Lebanon in recent days over the cartoons, which were first published in a Danish newspaper.

Iran's Commerce Minister Massoud Mirkazemi announced on Monday that Iran was severing all trade relations with Denmark.

Earlier on Monday, about 200 protesters threw fire bombs and stones at the Austrian Embassy in Tehran, breaking several windows but causing no major damage. Austria holds the rotating European Union presidency.

[KvHagedorn]

We should burn their embassies and then have the government issue an insincere apology (wink wink nudge nudge) like they did.

[schmosef]

The longer this continues the better the chance that the EU will wake up and realise exactly whom they've been dealing with all this time.

[schmosef]

the Anonymous Muslim Man Complaint Box

[lowlifecat]

TX> i thought i was more druze than anything. i dislike all religions enough not to care what i am. you on the other hand are free to assume whatever.

speaking about freedom (schmo), here in canada a person's freedom stops where someone else's start. This freedom does not include religious law of any type. Sharia was struck down but so where the christian and jewish equivilents. I saw enough media coverage about all the muslim protests. Didn't really see anything in the media about the jewish protests (i know they happened). i'd be happy if someone proves me wrong on that.

In other places in the world, in lebanon for example; a person's freedom stops where someone else's religion starts! That is, you can't insult or offend any religion, ANY religion. I suppose it could have something to do with the fact that there are a score different religions and sects. Even "the resistance" will never say 'Jewish' state. It's all about the Zionists. Ironicly, islamists like Hzballa won't attack Judaism as a "religion" because it's expressly forbidden in the Koran.

The way you talk about Hate Crimes and Satires it's obvious that is your subjective opinion. What you consider a hate crime another might consider it a satire, and what you obviously think is a funny another might consider a hate crime.

I saw an article in Haaretz earlier about the AEL website thingy, i quote: "Even Europe has it's sacred cows."

Here's another interesting article:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=679064&contrassID=2

It's anti-Semitism, but this time, the Semites aren't Jews.

The New Anti-Semitism, cartoon division
By Bradley Burston

Monday, 6 February (50 days to election day)





Advertisement

One thing that all journalists know is how to hurt people.

The good ones know how to avoid it, and do, refraining from racism, steering clear of character assassinations of private individuals.

The bad ones hurt people inadvertently, through breaches of professional ethics.

The worst, a group which can include some of the best known, do it on purpose. And of these, no one can hurt so many people all at once, as a cartoonist.

In sheer destructive potential, few elements of journalism can hold a candle to the hateful cartoon. The fact that the virulently anti-Semitic caricatures of the Nazi Der Sturmer weekly still circulate on neo-Nazi Websites more than 70 years after they were drawn, testifies to their power and longevity.

Of late, a new breed of anti-Semitic caricature has begun to circulate through Europe, an indication, perhaps, of a new breed of anti-Semitism. But the Semites, in this case, are not Jews.

The message of a number of the Danish cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammed in a variety of derogatory caricatures is roughly this: Most Muslims are Arabs, and most Arabs are potential suicide bombers.

The message is obscene. It is racist. It dishonors the bedrock spiritual beliefs of one of every six people on the entire planet. In that sense, it also profanes the right of freedom of speech, distorting it into the freedom to foster hatred.

Correctly, many rabbis have expressed their disgust at the cartoons. "I share the anger of Muslims following this publication," French Chief Rabbi Joseph Sitruk said. "I understand the hostility in the Arab world. One does not achieve anything by humiliating religion. It's a dishonest lack of respect."

Said the chief rabbi of Great Britain, Jonathan Sachs, "The only way to have freedom of speech and freedom from religious hatred is to exercise restraint. The question is: can we learn to respect what others hold holy?"

Still, when it came time to discuss a double standard in press freedoms, there were more than a few Muslim commentators who could not resist the opportunity to stick it to the Jews.

"In the West, one discovers there are different moral ceilings, and all moral parameters and measures are not equal," the pan-Arab daily Asharq al-Awsat wrote.

"If the Danish cartoon had been about a Jewish rabbi, it would never have been published."

As the case spiraled from outrage to arson this week, a surreal test case presented itself. The Arab European League, a Dutch-Belgian Islamic political group, posted a cartoon on its Website portraying Anne Frank, the best-known Dutch victim of the Nazi Holocaust, in bed with Adolf Hitler. A second cartoon questioned whether the Holocaust had actually taken place.

Dyab Abou Jahjah, the party's founder and best-known figure, defended the
action on Dutch television, again arguing on the basis of a double standard.

"Europe has its sacred cows, even if they're not religious sacred cows," he said.

This might well be the time to point out that a double standard can cut two ways.

Everyone who lives in the Middle East knows that one reason for the longevity of the hideous Jew-baiting cartoons of Der Sturmer, is the popularity of hideous Jew-baiting cartoons in popular publications in places like Cairo, Damascus, and Gaza City. Some of the same places, that is, where outrage over the Danish cartoons boiled over into violence, torching embassies, and death threats.

True, everyone here teaches hatred. We do. Our Muslim cousins do. But there's a serious lesson for all of us to learn in the cartoon affair. You don't fight fire with arson. You don't redress one newspaper's insult to an entire religion by burning the flag, profaning the symbol, of an entire people. You do not restore honor to Islam and its prophet by demonstrating in Knightsbridge, London, dressed as a suicide bomber, or carrying a banner reading "Butcher those who mock Islam."

It is right and proper to blame the people who are to blame. There is another name for blaming all members of a group for the actions of a few. It is racism. Surely the fact that you are the victim of racism, does not mean that you are immune from practicing it.

I believe that Berlin's Die Welt was wrong and hurtful in re-printing one of the Danish cartoons. But I cannot but agree with the comment that accompanied it.

"We'd take Muslim protests more seriously if they weren't so hypocritical," Die Welt wrote.

"The imams were quiet when Syrian television showed Jewish rabbis as cannibals in a prime-time series."

Now my question to you, since we can't have it both ways, don't you think it's time to come to a consesus: either we consider all these cartoons as satires.. or all as hate crimes as they deserve.

In any event, i'm not so sure this thread is about freedom or whatever anymore as it is about: "Look what the stupid muslims are doing now." I'm being blunt but that is what is being implied.

Side note: Since i brought up lebanon earlier i'd like to point out; most of those (throw in generic) muslims who rioted at the dannish embassy where syrian or pro-syrian.

http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&78B499E841958191C225710D002D58C7

Syria is widely blamed for the riots especially that the majority of those arrested for the violent actions that caused damage to properties and heightened sectarian tensions are Syrian nationals or belong to pro-Syrian groups.

Social Affairs Minister Nayla Mouawad said the complaint should state that Syria was interfering in Lebanese affairs with great impunity and instigating civil strife.

Her request was raised during an emergency cabinet session held Sunday night after police said that the majority of those arrested for ransacking the streets of Ashrafiyeh and Gemmayzeh turned out to be Syrians.

"This is an organized attempt to take advantage of Muslim anger for purposes that do not serve the interests of Muslims and Lebanon, but those of others beyond the border," Mouawad said.

The riot began when a huge demonstration against the publication of caricatures of Prophet Mohammed in European newspapers went out of control. Protesters burned the building housing the Danish consulate, hurled stones at a nearby church and damaged cars and buildings.

Seventy-seven out of the 192 rioters detained on Sunday are Syrian nationals, An Nahar reported on Monday. The others are 42 Palestinians, 48 Lebanese and 25 Bedouins.

According to Al Hayat newspaper, most of the Palestinian detainees belong to the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command, which is headed by the Damascus-based Ahmed Jibril.

The pro-Syrian group maintains a network of tunnels and arms caches in Naameh, south of Beirut. Last month, one of its gunmen shot and wounded two municipality employees, an incident that caused uproar and led to calls for banning Palestinian weapons outside refugee camps.

Other Palestinians arrested for taking part in the riots belong to radical Islamist groups in Ain al-Hilweh and Nahr al-Bared refugee camps, according to the London-based daily.

or

http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&BED48B9625674693C225710D0039E542

Enough from me, i'm off to make pepper steak!
/meow

[TransformX]

Now my question to you, since we can't have it both ways, don't you think it's time to come to a consesus: either we consider all these cartoons as satires.. or all as hate crimes as they deserve.

Right! Israel should nuke most muslim countries for propagating Jew and American hatered, both on national and religious level!

In any event, i'm not so sure this thread is about freedom or whatever anymore as it is about: "Look what the stupid muslims are doing now." I'm being blunt but that is what is being implied.

Well, are you claiming them to be smart? Cultured? Anything other than a mob? Sorry, but all the news I've seen in the last few days, in all forms of international media, show me Al-Qaeda lovers, threats of beheading, terror etc.
In my book, they fall under rabid animals.

Side note: Since i brought up lebanon earlier i'd like to point out; most of those (throw in generic) muslims who rioted at the dannish embassy where syrian or pro-syrian.
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/Ne...25710D002D58C7

Still muslims..

[TransformX]

By the way, from LLC's quoted Haaretz article, the important stuff is in the end...

Everyone who lives in the Middle East knows that one reason for the longevity of the hideous Jew-baiting cartoons of Der Sturmer, is the popularity of hideous Jew-baiting cartoons in popular publications in places like Cairo, Damascus, and Gaza City. Some of the same places, that is, where outrage over the Danish cartoons boiled over into violence, torching embassies, and death threats.

--snip--

believe that Berlin's Die Welt was wrong and hurtful in re-printing one of the Danish cartoons. But I cannot but agree with the comment that accompanied it.

"We'd take Muslim protests more seriously if they weren't so hypocritical," Die Welt wrote.

"The imams were quiet when Syrian television showed Jewish rabbis as cannibals in a prime-time series."

[schmosef]

llc, your's has got to be a new record for volume of words used to make no sense.

Let's take this one point at a time.

you on the other hand are free to assume whatever.

I am free. TX is free. You are free. That's the POINT!

speaking about freedom (schmo), here in canada a person's freedom stops where someone else's start. This freedom does not include religious law of any type. Sharia was struck down but so where the christian and jewish equivilents. I saw enough media coverage about all the muslim protests. Didn't really see anything in the media about the jewish protests (i know they happened). i'd be happy if someone proves me wrong on that.

Prove you wrong on what? I'm not sure what your point is.

Recently the PROVINCE OF ONTARIO (I can't speak for other provinces) said that it would stop allowing the optional use of religious tribunals to arbitrate family law disputes. They did this despite years of success with Christian and Jewish tribunals because they couldn't think of a PC way to exclude Shariah based tribunals.

There was no concern about fairness of Jewish or Christian tribunals. Not internal nor external. There was MUCH concern both internally from abused women and children and externally from the non-Muslim community that allowing Shariah based tribunals wouldn't adequately protect the rights of women and children.

Muslim protests were because they think Sharia is "perfect" and Canada is offending Islam by not allowing it. There weren't any Jewish "protests" in any sense comparable to what you're suggesting.

All the Jews said was, "hey, you're dismantling a system that's worked for a long time only because you're scared to call a spade a spade. Maybe you should reconsider?" Any Jewish disagreement over the issue wasn't because we thought the government was offending G-d.

We acknowledge that religious tribunals are a privilege, not a right. The Talmud tells us to respect the laws of our host countries, not subvert them...

Moreover, the issue isn't about the right to protest. Protests are good. Peaceful assembly is good.

Yet I've seen Pro Palestinian demonstrations in Toronto. They are anything but peaceful. I wouldn't walk through one because I know that my life would be in danger.

But anybody of any race, religion, or creed could walk through a pro-Israel rally. Their biggest risk would be to their cholesterol level as they'd be almost force fed Falafel and other street food.

In other places in the world, in lebanon for example; a person's freedom stops where someone else's religion starts! That is, you can't insult or offend any religion, ANY religion. I suppose it could have something to do with the fact that there are a score different religions and sects. Even "the resistance" will never say 'Jewish' state. It's all about the Zionists. Ironicly, islamists like Hzballa won't attack Judaism as a "religion" because it's expressly forbidden in the Koran.

I hear that same tripe almost constantly; "it's not Jews that they don't like, it's Zionists."

100% pure bullshit.

If they loved the Jews so much then why did 1 million of them have to flee from persecution in Muslim controlled lands in the 50s and 60s. You don't know your history, llc (or maybe you think that I don't know mine). If you really want to push this issue I can establish quite easily how hard Jews, Christians, and other religions had it under Muslim rule over the last 1300+ years. Just ask the Persian Zoroastrians how it's been... Oh I forgot, there aren't any left. I think that the Christians of Bethlehem (and the rest of the PA controlled areas) have probably been seeking them out. (anti Christian graffiti is quite common in Christian Palestinian neighbourhoods: "First the Saturday people, then the Sunday people". nice!)

To be sure I've seen Hezbollah on TV say that they're not against Jews on a very regular basis. It's a lie. A tactic for the easily duped. Every once in a while they let the veil drop (maybe because they forget themselves or maybe because they don't realize that their words will be translated and rebroadcast) and when it does the true depth of their Koranic based hate for anything Jewish is clearly evident.

That line about not hating Jews would only fool a neophyte to these issues. Your claim about what the Koran does or does not permit likewise.

I have to ask you, what's the basis of your Islamic scholarship? If you really want to establish yourself as an authority on the issue you'll have to elaborate.

The way you talk about Hate Crimes and Satires it's obvious that is your subjective opinion. What you consider a hate crime another might consider it a satire, and what you obviously think is a funny another might consider a hate crime.

The issue comes down to whether a genuine attempt has been made to foster debate or simply incite hatred. A picture of a MAN doesn't incite hatred. It does foster debate in this case. As the Danish paper said, they wanted to explore the extent of press self-censorship of Islamic issues because of the fear of backlash. They've explored it. It's worse than they thought. When the Arab press vilifies Jews and Israelis it's not because they are trying to foster debate it's because they are trying to scapegoat the Jews for the dire straights of the Arab nation.

I saw an article in Haaretz earlier about the AEL website thingy, i quote: "Even Europe has it's sacred cows."

I don't know what that phrase is supposed to mean. Be sure I know what the term sacred cow refers to. I just don't know why they are referring to it.

Quoting a title doesn't go very far toward making your point. I still can't even tell what your point is supposed to be.

Here's another interesting article:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=679064&contrassID=2

It's anti-Semitism, but this time, the Semites aren't Jews.

You're going to quote Ha'aretz? Rather than explain how stupid that strategy is, let me quote from one of the talkbacks to that article:

The political cartoons were an expression of freedom of speech to suppress would be wrong. If you were offended by them then you can demonstrate, write letters to the editor, stop reading the paper, or finally just live with it.
To respond with threats, riots, burning of buildings, printing ant-Jewish cartoons are an exhibition of political immaturity of the type the cartoon tried to alert us in the first place. By engaging in these acts of vandalism you are merely verifying the cartoons message.
The injection Jews, who had noting to do with any of this, into this controversy is a form of blackmail.
These cartoons may be anti-Islamic but they are not ?anti-Semitic.? The anti-Semitism is evident only in the reaction many Muslims have had to these cartoons. This is sad, and it shows the demagogic nature of Muslim political discourse.

Free speech at work!

Now my question to you, since we can't have it both ways, don't you think it's time to come to a consesus: either we consider all these cartoons as satires.. or all as hate crimes as they deserve.

It's not about having it both ways. It's about approaching issues honestly. I could elaborate but in truth, you know what I mean.

In any event, i'm not so sure this thread is about freedom or whatever anymore as it is about: "Look what the stupid muslims are doing now." I'm being blunt but that is what is being implied.

Hey, you're free to think what you like and be as blunt as you like. THAT'S THE POINT!

[schmosef]

Interesting story:

http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2006/02/05/456857.html

In April 2003 Christoffer Zieler had sent some Jesus cartoons to JylandsPosten. These cartoons was never published.

Unless you can provide an English translation I can't discuss the piece.

Are you saying that it wasn't published because of censorship? The fear of a violent backlash?

Maybe they just didn't like the cartoons? That happens, you know.

Newspapers and book publisher get submissions all the time. Just because something isn't published doesn't mean that it's because of censorship.

Maybe the cartoons weren't right for Jylands-Posten. Maybe the editor at the time was Christian and was offended.

The point isn't that THEY should have printed the cartoons. Because some paper in Europe or the West definitely would have. The issue is that until Jylands-Posten took a stand NO ONE was brave enough to tackle the issue of self-censorship of Islamic issues.