The State of The Union

[Lizzard[MPE]]

yea i have many things to say but my internet kept closing out lastnight.

[KvHagedorn]

Uhm, so what you mean is that as long as somebody has done something equally questionable before you do it's okay to do it?

No, I'm saying that Democrats that point their fingers at Bush for everything are the same people who whitewash Clinton's crimes and that even the greatest Democratic president ever did things even worse in the throes of war, but this would never be mentioned.

BTW, clueless me had a Quaker roommate at the University of Chicago. Biggest ass hole I ever met. I know they are pacifists, but they don't have any call to impose their religion upon the government or school systems, now do they? See the hypocrisy at work? Wombat wants to say how awful religious people are when they influence government.. that is, until he can use such actions as an example of their "harmlessness."

[Wombat]

I know they are pacifists, but they don't have any call to impose their religion upon the government or school systems, now do they? See the hypocrisy at work? Wombat wants to say how awful religious people are when they influence government.. that is, until he can use such actions as an example of their "harmlessness."

I was going to reply to this, but your own words disassemble your "hypocrisy argument" better than I could.

This isn't about Quaker influence in government, this is about the possibility of a violent terrorist attack on the country originating from a Quaker meeting. *laugh* I thought we were "just" monitoring overseas calls to Arab terrorists? Oops, guess not.

Just the same, you don't see me advocating government spying on fundamentalists at random, even though they're far more likely to have a doctor-sniper or building-bomber in their midst than the Quakers are to do, well, anything violent.

You wanna monitor and record a group of people? Get a warrant.

[KvHagedorn]

Get a warrant? In this case I agree. It's quite obvious that they were monitored because they were antiwar activists, though. If their credentials as Quakers were firm, there should have been no question of terrorism, but antiwar activists at the beginning of the Iraq war were a bit too aggressive in their tactics, and almost frothing at the mouth in their blindered hatred for anything the administration did, and invited such scrutiny.

[Helevitia]

This cracked me up.

Dave Ross - 1:34

http://kiro.liquidviewer.net/kiro-od/rosscommentary.asf

[Gurm]

Get a warrant? In this case I agree. It's quite obvious that they were monitored because they were antiwar activists, though. If their credentials as Quakers were firm, there should have been no question of terrorism, but antiwar activists at the beginning of the Iraq war were a bit too aggressive in their tactics, and almost frothing at the mouth in their blindered hatred for anything the administration did, and invited such scrutiny.

Dude, the WHOLE NATION pretty much has decided that what this administration does is pretty out-of-line.

[VJ]

Well, I'm still not a pro Bush man, and don't know the entire state of the union.
But at least now he tries to spark more research towards alternative fuel and getting rid of the oil 'addiction'. IMO, that deserves a


Jörg

[cjolley]

Well, I'm still not a pro Bush man, and don't know the entire state of the union.
But at least now he tries to spark more research towards alternative fuel and getting rid of the oil 'addiction'. IMO, that deserves a


Jörg

He proposed to put back some of the money he cut in previous years.
But now there is no money to spend, so it won't happen anyway.

[Gurm]

Lemme sum up.

1. The state of the union is STRONG.

2. God bless the USA!

3. I, GWB, ruuuuuuule!

4. Wiretaps are legal because I say so.

5. Suck it, dems!

6. Bush = right. Always.

7. I AM THE LAW!

There is no substance to what Bush says. Now more than ever I am convinced that we managed to elect - TWICE - someone completely anencephalic. It's like Gary Trudeau says. Bush never thinks - he only believes.

[Dr Mordrid]

FYI polls show that anywhere from 58-65% of the public as a whole approve of the NSA wiretaps, including about 45% of Democrats and a solid majority of independents. His overall approval rating has been 45-50% (and rising) and by a 2:1 margin they approved of the proposals put forth in the State of the Union address.

Something else about the polls: most polling companies don't get very accurate numbers in the presidential approval and other surveys because they tend to under-sample Republicans, suburban and rural voters. This is why you see pre-election polls where Republicans are several points behind but they end up winning by 5 or more points

Suck it up.

Dr. Mordrid

[cjolley]

...and by a 2:1 margin they approved of the proposals put forth in the State of the Union address.

And by a 3:1 margin they don't think he will accomplish any of it.

Happy talk, keep talkin' happy talk,
Talk about things you'd like to do.
You got to have a dream,
If you don't have a dream,
How you gonna have a dream come true?

Talk about the moon floatin' in the sky
Lookin' at a lily on the lake;
Talk about a bird learnin' how to fly.
Makin' all the music he can make.

Happy talk, keep talkin' happy talk,
Talk about things you'd like to do.
You got to have a dream,
If you don't have a dream,
How you gonna have a dream come true?

Talk about the sparrow lookin' like a toy
Pickin' through the broaches of a tree;
Talk about the girl, talk about the boy
Countin' all the ripples on the sea.

Happy talk, keep talkin' happy talk,
Talk about things you'd like to do.
You got to have a dream,
If you don't have a dream
How you gonna have a dream come true?

[RC Agent]

Hope you all just don't talk crap and actually f'king VOTE!

[Wulfman]

just wondering:

we are now in a time when the War Powers Act as been implemented both against AQ and in Iraq.

if you are at war against AQ, why are those people still no prisoners of war?

regarding the speech - so gwb plans to cut back 75% on oil importants from ME, which are about 22% of the total import, which would mean a reduction by 15%. and part of this reduction should be covered from other sources rather than actual "power saving". all hail to gwb...

mfg
wulfman

[Jammrock]

just wondering:
if you are at war against AQ, why are those people still no prisoners of war?

Because they do not belong to a nation, per say. With no nation backing them, at least that will admit backing them, the US is not bound to the Geneva conventions regarding war and prisoners of war because the US is not at war (any more) with a nation, just an organization with no sovereignty.

i.e. loophole.

Jammrock

[Dr Mordrid]

1. because an implementation of the War Powers act is not a declaration of war. That's a separate procedure. WPA is an approval by Congress of an action short of a formal DOW plus funding for same that has to be renewed at regular intervals. WPA is actually more useful against non-governmental enemies because they are not a "country", which is what the DOW was designed to deal with.

2. because they don't meet the Genevia Convention's description of war fighters. No uniform, no insignia etc. etc. means they do not quality as POW's. As such they can be treated differently, as has been done forever with spies and other non-uniformed combatants. You didn't see the various Soviet and US spies captured over the years being called POW's, did you? Same thing, and US legal precident going back to WWII allows them to be tried in a military tribunal.

Be glad we aren't treating them like the Germans and Japanese did.

3. the reductions in gas use are to be largely made by accelerating the use of E85: 85% ethanol powered cars. American car makers, esp. GM, alreay make E85 cars for South America and even some US models are E85 capable, but not always labeled so.

E85 fuel is already available here in the midwestern US and the "extra cost" to make an E85 vehicle only amounts to ~$150 USD per vehicle.

FYI: the US can grow massive amounts of the crops necessary to produce ethanol....more than enough to meet this need, especially given that ethanol gives back 126% of the non-solar (human provided) energy that it takes to produce it. OTOH gasoline only gives back 85% of the energy it takes to produce it.

Just about any plant material can be used to make ethanol. Could be a whole new industry in the making....

The main thing is overcoming both corporate and governmental intertia in opening more E85 fuel stations and getting more US cars E85 capable. Some fuel distributors won't let their stations install E85 pumps for various reasons, so government has to get involved in righting that and other impediments.

Ford is off to a good start with a new E85 capable hybrid Escape SUV prototype, and that combination is IMO "where it's at". Ford plans to produce up to 250,000 ethanol-capable vehicles this year, including the Ford F-150 pickup which has been the largest selling model in the US for many years.

Much of the alternative energy research done by US auto companies in the last few years was helped by $10 billion USD in research grants by the US govt., a program proposed by Bush years ago in his first enerby bill.

That investment is now beginning to bear fruit as all US makers are now committed to producing large numbers of alternative fuel and hybrid vehicles (some in the same package) starting this year.

Dr. Mordrid