Concealed Carry strikes again....

[Dr Mordrid]

Oh yes, but they aren't stupid enough to steal a purse with one. They just take you to the cash point and force you to take out as much money as possible.

A tiny percentage of robberies.

Have lots of lethal weapons lying around, people will use them, especially crooks.

Not the same pool of weapons. Most crooks use weapons originally obtained illegally. Gun crime among legal pistol owners is rare by FBI numbers.

You're arming both sides, we are not.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't be arming citizens, it means you should be letting them defend themselves against a threat the police don't have the manpower to handle or even discourage.

Here even the police departments are actually in on arming the citizenry; they offer marksmanship and combat training courses on their ranges, and many of the officers and police officer groups spoke in favor of the new laws in the legislature hearings. They admit that they can't be everywhere in a country this vast and that people will have to handle things on their own at times.

Also active in many states are womens groups since they are very often the victim of crimes. Smaller and not as strong a firearm becomes the equalizer, so much so that most of Michigans new pistol owners and CCW holders are now women of all ages. One is my wife Margie who was an experienced rifle/shotgun/compound bow user before getting her gun and permit. Believe me, anyone that takes her on will have their hands more than full.

In the end states where pistol ownership and CCW licenses are high have reduced their crime rates. This trend started with Florida which was one if the early states to liberalize licensing and ownership after some German tourists were killed during a robbery. Their crime rate dropped like a rock so other states followed suit in rapid order and had the same experience.

Proof is in the pudding.

You CANNOT justify arming the masses by any account.

Sure we can. See above.

Not unless we go back 2 or 300 years...

80-100 is enough.

Examples of what we have -

SIG P-239 SAS .40 S&W (my carry piece)



Beretta 9000 S 9mm (wife's carry piece)



Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 magnum



Desert Eagle .50



Thompson Center Contender (hunting calibers by barrel swap up to 45-70)

AKA: "Dad's hand cannon" (all the kids name for it)

[DukeP]

For God's sake, murdering someone ("several rounds") for the contents of a purse. One shot in the leg would have sufficed. This was not even self defence, as the victim was already running away. Totally inexcusable. This could be interpreted as premeditated murder, as she was carrying, obviously with the intent of killing an aggressor.

Could not agree more.

In Denmark she would have faced 6-8 years in prison.

You may not kill. Not to prect property, not to reclaim property. Only to prevent another killing.

[ALBPM]

Nice pistol prOn Doc....LOL!!!

In New Mexico we have stricter laws for concealed carry.

1. You cannot use deadly force to protect property. Only if your life
is threatened can you shoot.

2. We have the Fleeing Felon Law. You cannot shoot someone in the back as they are running away from you.

We finally got the right to carry in stores/gas stations that sell packaged liquor
to consume off the premises.

[TransformX]

Could not agree more.

In Denmark she would have faced 6-8 years in prison.

You may not kill. Not to prect property, not to reclaim property. Only to prevent another killing.

What about your policemen? If someone was resisting arrest and fled, can they shoot at him?

[DukeP]

What about your policemen? If someone was resisting arrest and fled, can they shoot at him?

No.

Exceptions exists, obviously: If the person is running away from a policeman to axe some one across the street, then yes. If someone is driving so recklessly, that an accident is guaranteed to happen, then yes. But the offender has to be dangerous right in the moment.

And obviously, whenever guns are fired, there will be an inquiry, performed by an independent tribunal of judges.

~~DukeP~~

[Brian Ellis]

I suspect your (and others') love story with lethal guns is that they are adult toys (unfortunately not always even adults). You even have to use euphemisms for your weapons by using such terms as 'piece' instead of calling them what they really are.

I lived most of my life in a country, Switzerland, with liberal gun laws, where almost anyone can purchase firearms of every shape and size.

n some 2001 statistics, it is noted that there are about 420,000 assault rifles stored at private homes, mostly SIG 550 types. Additionally, there are some 320,000 assault rifles and military pistols exempted from military service in private possession, all selective-fire weapons having been converted to semi-automatic operation only. In addition, there are several hundred thousand other semi-automatic small arms classified as carbines. The total number of firearms in private homes is estimated minimally at 1.2 million to 3 million.

As the population is about 7½ million and the # of households is 2,333,000, it looks as if ther are as many guns as there are households, or thereabouts. Yet the country is relatively crime-free. In 2008, there were 165 homicides, of which 18 were done with firearms. Compare that with your beloved Detroit, The Motor City experienced 418 cases of murder and non-negligent manslaughter in 2006 (450 expected this year according to police chief Evans). Other Detroit crimes:
Violent crimes: 21,394
Forcible rapes: 593
Robberies: 7,240
Aggravated assault: 13,143
Property crime: 62,338
Burglary: 18,134
Larceny/theft: 21,287
Motor vehicle theft: 22,917
Arson: 85

And this is for a population of Metro Detroit of 4,425,110, less than 60% of the Swiss population.

In Detroit, since the introduction of CCW, murder rates have increased. Detroit and the District switched places in the ranking, even though the Detroit's homicide rate rose 1.8 percent last year. Link

According to the FBI, 32% of murders are not gun-related, so this would make the 418 cases in 2006 look like 284 gun murders in Detroit, against 18 in Switzerland (11 pro rata to the population).

So why does Detroit have nearly 26 times the rate of gun related murders, while both places have liberal gun laws? Certainly partly due to economics and partly due to a higher use of narcotics. However, I think the main reason is that there is a different mindset: Europe holds life is more sacrosanct, while the pioneering spirit of the Wild and Woolly West is more engrained into US culture, propagated by the NRA and other gun lobbies, combined with a misinterpretation of the 2nd Amendment which has allowed the simple gun to become a weapon of mass destruction in the hands of those who have no clue what is the meaning of the responsibility of carrying firearms. Pandora's box has been opened and no one knows how to shut it again.

[Dr Mordrid]

Because Switzerland is land locked and doesn't have the inner-city drug problems and endemic poverty cities in the US have. Nor do they have minority 'leaders' who are content to continue, even worsen, this situation so as to maintain their political and economic power bases. See Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton etc. etc. etc.

Take those out of the equation and the numbers are quite different. With those problems the other citizens have the need to protect themselves - see, we've retained the willingness to defened ourselves instead of depending on the state to do it for us.

Also the state has finally admitted they can't be everywhere and that by the time the police get there their job is to clean up the mess and handle the bureaucratic end of things. This does nothing for the now victim, so the decision was taken to let the victim have some say in their fate.

And then there is this from the Outside The Beltway DC news blog....

Dog Bites Man: Gun Crimes Down In Michigan Since Passage Of CCW Law

Tuesday, January 8, 2008

Michigan sees fewer gun deaths — with more permits (Detroit Free Press):

Six years after new rules made it much easier to get a license to carry concealed weapons, the number of Michiganders legally packing heat has increased more than six-fold.

But dire predictions about increased violence and bloodshed have largely gone unfulfilled, according to law enforcement officials and, to the extent they can be measured, crime statistics.

The incidence of violent crime in Michigan in the six years since the law went into effect has been, on average, below the rate of the previous six years. The overall incidence of death from firearms, including suicide and accidents, also has declined.

Michigan mirrors the experience of pretty much every state that’s liberalized its concealed carry laws: Hyberbolic predictions of the streets running red with blood before, reductions in violent crime after. With each new state that goes through this process, the former become more difficult to sustain and the latter harder to ignore (though some, of course, still do).

And these are the latest accurate figures for 2008 - this years won't be available 'til next year.

Latest FBI figures....

FBI: Violent crime, including murder, down in Detroit during 2008

By Jonathan Oosting | MLive.com
September 14, 2009, 11:25AM

Violent crime in Detroit fell 11.6 percent in 2008, according to Uniform Crime Report data released today by the FBI.

Reports of murder and non-negligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery and aggravated assault in Detroit all fell in 2008 compared to the previous year:

• Violent crime down in Metro Detroit's largest cities; Royal Oak, Southfield see biggest drops

• Murder and non-negligent manslaughter: Dropped 22.34 percent to 306

• Forcible rape: Dropped 3.2 percent to 330

• Robbery: Dropped 7 percent to 6,115

• Aggravated assault: Dropped 13.9 percent to 10,677

Following an investigation by the Detroit News, they city's 2007 homicide rate ended up tops in the nation at 40.7 murders per every 100,000 residents. That rate fell to 33.78 in 2008.

The UCR includes data voluntarily reported by municipal, county and state agencies.

Of all reported crimes, only burglary increased in Detroit in 2008:

• Property crime: Down from 58,302 to 53,095

• Burglary: Up from 17,767 to 17,818

• Larceny-theft: Down from 20,918 to 18,836

• Motor vehicle theft: Down from 19,617 to 16,441

• Arson: Down from 758 to 691

Nationwide, violent crimes fell 1.9 percent in 2008.

When he took office in July, Detroit Police Chief Warren Evans said crime figures could rise on his watch as he looked to address regular reporting oversights. We'll have to wait another year to see if that's the case.

Keep it tuned to MLive Detroit, as we'll delve into numbers for other Metro Detroit communities later in the day.

[jms]

In Denmark she would have faced 6-8 years in prison.

Same here, and for rape you get a couple of years. Ridiculous!

[Dr Mordrid]

And in the vast majority of US states the presumption is that the victim acted properly until proven otherwise. Innocent until proven and all that...

Not to mention that we have 'jury nullification' - the right of a citizen jury to ignore a poorly applied or written law and acquit based on the circumstances. In application the juries often think "there but for the Grace of God go I...", which gives even hyperaggressive prosecutors pause.

[Evildead666]

[QUOTE=Dr Mordrid;670992]A tiny percentage of robberies.

Not the same pool of weapons. Most crooks use weapons originally obtained illegally. Gun crime among legal pistol owners is rare by FBI numbers.

So where do these illegal guns come from ? Illegal gun factories, and illegal gun stores ?
Someone is manufacturing a lot of them, and couldn't care less who bought them.
You aren't solving the problem, you are compacting it.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't be arming citizens, it means you should be letting them defend themselves against a threat the police don't have the manpower to handle or even discourage.

Sort out your Police Force, ban Donut and Bagels or something

Here even the police departments are actually in on arming the citizenry; they offer marksmanship and combat training courses on their ranges, and many of the officers and police officer groups spoke in favor of the new laws in the legislature hearings. They admit that they can't be everywhere in a country this vast and that people will have to handle things on their own at times.

Get the schools right, don't go arming the populace.

Also active in many states are womens groups since they are very often the victim of crimes. Smaller and not as strong a firearm becomes the equalizer, so much so that most of Michigans new pistol owners and CCW holders are now women of all ages. One is my wife Margie who was an experienced rifle/shotgun/compound bow user before getting her gun and permit. Believe me, anyone that takes her on will have their hands more than full.

Learn karaté or something, good for health and body and protection. Mace is quite a repellent also, and auditory alarms/sirens.

In the end states where pistol ownership and CCW licenses are high have reduced their crime rates. This trend started with Florida which was one if the early states to liberalize licensing and ownership after some German tourists were killed during a robbery. Their crime rate dropped like a rock so other states followed suit in rapid order and had the same experience.

Proof is in the pudding.

So Guns save lives ?

Sure we can. See above.


80-100 is enough.

A couple of hundred or so, would be enough to pre-date the silly "Right to bear arms" thingy.......

You may have brought up you're children right, with respect for lives and weapons etc, but not all people are as good as you are.
Accidents happen, and people are stupid.

That many weapons and no accidents or fatalities means you must be very careful.

I would just like to repeat for the record:

WE do NOT have this option. I'm not even sure you CAN see it from our eyes.
I never saw a real gun before I was 11, and have never been allowed to play with them...

(end of work, rush home time)
edit : (home) How is it that we all here can live without being armed to the teeth ? What is so fundamentally different, that you MUST have guns ?
If NO ONE is allowed guns, except the armed forces (named that way for a reason no?) then when they see someone with a gun, Its a bad guy. A Knife ? Bad guy.
More weapons will = more weapons...

edit2 : (OFF TOPIC) Don't buy Steelseries keyboards, the letters have worn in 6 months and some of the keys need a right whack to actually work. That and the delete key is too small, keep on pressing the \ button.....for over 100euros i'm peeved. Think I shall be emailing them for a replacement or something....

[Dr Mordrid]

Remember the old song Praise The Lord And Pass The Ammunition?

Link....

Alleged burglar shot by minister to face charges

Doug Guthrie / The Detroit News

Detroit -- An alleged church burglar, shot and wounded by a minister while making a getaway on a bicycle, will be charged with breaking and entering, according to the Wayne County prosecutor's office.

Charges have been authorized against Tyrone O. Badey, 41, of Detroit, who has been hospitalized since the incident on Sunday evening. Badey is expected to be arraigned soon in 36th District Court.

He is accused of breaking into the Westside Bible Church, 19000 Winston. Badey was leaving as the pastor, retired Detroit Police lieutenant Lawrence Adams, was arriving. The minister had been alerted by a burglar alarm to a possible problem at the church.

Police say the minister noted Badey had stolen items in a bag and a struggle started. Witnesses told police the pastor shot Badey after Badey attempted to hit the minister.

[Brian Ellis]

shot and wounded by a minister while making a getaway on a bicycle

Again, shot after the event when he was fleeing. This is SO wrong. Attempted murder or at least GBH.

[Dr Mordrid]

Brian...selective reading on your part. The minister was protecting himself....

Police say the minister noted Badey had stolen items in a bag and a struggle started. Witnesses told police the pastor shot Badey after Badey attempted to hit the minister.

Self defense from the get go, and it matters not if the perp was armed or not. You can kill someone barehanded, so the perp is presumed to be dangerous.

Even so Castle Doctrine laws also apply to the property, not just the building, and many incidents of shooting an escaping criminal have been held to be good shoots. You see in the US we also have the right to do a citizens arrest. Only North Carolina doesn't have this in their statutes, but even there citizen detention is allowed. The difference is that in a citizens arrest the detained person can be transported, presumably to the cop shop.

[Brian Ellis]

Doc: Selective reading on your part:

Witnesses told police the pastor shot Badey after Badey attempted to hit the minister.

Not while or during, after. When he was fleeing on his bike, by the account.

[TransformX]

Just because he failed, doesn't automatically make him immune to retaliation.
I don't turn the other cheek, you had your shot at me, I want mine at you.