Electric cars not accessible 'in next five years'

[Brian Ellis]

The majority of global car executives do not foresee a reasonably priced electric vehicle being available on the mass market in the next five years, a survey has suggested.

Many also believe that electric cars will not be affordable without government subsidies, KPMG said.

Link

[dZeus]

What's the use of electric cars without equally increasing the amount of power plants?

Sounds like a very expensive and potentially very polluting idea to me. How does the amount of pollutants per travelled km of petrol cars compare to electric cars on coal-plant generated electricity (including the petrol and electric infrastructures/hardware required)?

Smarter use of cars (pooling people that need to travel to the same place at the same time) seems like a much cheaper and more effective way to reduce energy needs to me. With today's state of internet and increased availability of access to it through cellphones it should technically be relatively easy to accomplish this.

[Fat Tone]

Yes, but I want to go where I want, when I want. I don't want to share with a stranger who could be smelly, obnxious, phobic etc etc.

I think the human condition is the biggest obstacle.

[dZeus]

Yes, but I want to go where I want, when I want. I don't want to share with a stranger who could be smelly, obnxious, phobic etc etc.

I think the human condition is the biggest obstacle.

When peak oil will be visible in higher petrol prices, attitude will change. Businesses can mandate their workers to take part in such system to save costs (e.g. when their workers drive in company cars).

[Tjalfe]

if most cars are charged overnight, which is way off peak hours, it seems like a good use of the power which is being generated anyways, and not used. It is not like they turn off the powerplants at night

[Umfriend]

So my 9-yo reads this page and says:
"So humans are your biggest obstacle? HOW DARE YOU ALIENS INVADE OUR PLANET?"

He's got a sense of humor that one.

[Brian Ellis]

if most cars are charged overnight, which is way off peak hours, it seems like a good use of the power which is being generated anyways, and not used. It is not like they turn off the powerplants at night

They do not switch off the power plants, but they certainly reduce the output. Imagine a 1 GW plant with five turbines. At night, they may be running only two of the turbines with a reduced fuel input. If they have to increase the output, then they also have to increase the input with the consequent pollution. Even so, most calculations show that the available energy by increasing the input would not be sufficient to cater for mainstream electric vehicles. This would not be the case with hybrid vehicles, even plug-in hybrids, because the batteries are very much smaller. However, the residential district distribution systems are definitely inadequate, even for plug-in hybrids.

[Dr Mordrid]

What's the use of electric cars without equally increasing the amount of power plants?
>

A study done in the US determined we have a parge over-capacity in the off-hours (9 PM to 6 AM), enough so that plug-in vehicles with programmable charging like Volt, Leaf or the Ford Focus EV present no problem. The Focus EV is to be produced ~2 miles from here in a partially solar powered factory.

Another charging method is also coming to market: home solar trees. These charging devices would pump kWh's into the grid during daylight peaks, which the power company would pay you for at the going rate. When you charge at night you would then buy KWh at the lower off-peak rate, thus subsidizing your other kWh usage as an encouragement to go EV. Our power company already does this for customers with panels connected to the grid. In addition many local retailers are addig charging stations to their parking lots, and many of these will be solar.

I would also direct your attention to my post in Science & Military about Argonne Labs new cheaper LiION tech. GM has also patented a way to refurb LiION batteries several times, lowering further their replacement cost, and they are working with power companies to use 'retired' batteries for load leveling.

In addition to this a new solar panel printing tech is working its way to market. Its very low cost and can quickly print a flexible solar panel on most any substrate. To demo it the group printed one on toilet paper. They also printed one on regular paper, folded it into a paper airplane and it still produced a good portion of its original capacity.

Lots going on in the EV power front.

[Brian Ellis]

When peak oil will be visible in higher petrol prices, attitude will change. Businesses can mandate their workers to take part in such system to save costs (e.g. when their workers drive in company cars).

I don't think legislation would work very well, even at company level, because the persons who ride in the cars are individuals with individual requirements. I've known cases of husbands and wives working in the same establishment but going to work in individual cars because their duties do not necessarily take them to the same places or the wife may be needing to pick up the kids and has to leave half an hour earlier than the husband. This is fine in theory but not in practice, in my opinion.

[Brian Ellis]

A study done in the US determined we have a parge over-capacity in the off-hours (9 PM to 6 AM), enough so that plug-in vehicles with programmable charging like Volt, Leaf or the Ford Focus EV (to be produced ~2 miles from here) present no problem.

Another charging method is also coming to market: home solar trees. These charging devices would pump kWh's into the grid during daylight peaks, which the power company woul pay you for at the going rate. When you charge at night you would then buy KWh at the lower off-peak rate, thus subsidizing your othdr kWh usage as an encouragement. Our power company already does this for customers with panels connected to the grid.

I would also direct your attention to my post in Science & Military about Argonne Labs new cheaper LiION tech. GM has also patented a way to refurb LiION batteries several times, lowering further their replacement cost, and they are working with power companies to use 'retired' batteries for load leveling.

In addition to this a new solar panel printing tech is working its way to market. Its very low cost and can quickly print a flexible solar panel on most any substrate. To demo it the group printed one on toilet paper. They also printed one on regular paper, folded it into a paper airplane and it still produced a good portion of its original capacity.

Lots going on in the EV power front.

I'm sorry, but all this is pious theory at this stage.

[Brian Ellis]

Yes, but I want to go where I want, when I want. I don't want to share with a stranger who could be smelly, obnxious, phobic etc etc.

I think the human condition is the biggest obstacle.

fine, if you think you can pick up the most gorgeous lady in the neighbourhood!

[Brian Ellis]

What's the use of electric cars without equally increasing the amount of power plants?

Sounds like a very expensive and potentially very polluting idea to me. How does the amount of pollutants per travelled km of petrol cars compare to electric cars on coal-plant generated electricity (including the petrol and electric infrastructures/hardware required)?

Smarter use of cars (pooling people that need to travel to the same place at the same time) seems like a much cheaper and more effective way to reduce energy needs to me. With today's state of internet and increased availability of access to it through cellphones it should technically be relatively easy to accomplish this.

I think I agree with the others that sharing is rarely very practical. I was watching a documentary where a guy in Teheran wanted to get across the town for a gig. Apparently, nearly every private car is also a taxi. It took him five cars to get anywhere near where he wanted to be, within easy walking distance.

I have come across one case where this was semi-practical. At the time, I was living in the outskirts of Newcastle upon Tyne but working in the mining village of Bedlington (whether dogs come from!). I had three other colleagues in the same position and, on an average, at least three of us shared cars four days per week. Nevertheless, he who did not want to share the following day had to announce that he was opting out. In those days, we did not have cellphones or even landlines in some cases, so the system fell through in cases of illness or other urgencies. If a person was not at the designated pickup point at the right time, then tough cheese. The crunch came when somebody who was the driver of that day could not get his car started. As it happened, it was the morning that the prospective buyer of the company was visiting, to find that four senior research individuals had to take the bus and arrive one hour late! All hell was let loose!

[Dr Mordrid]

I'm sorry, but all this is pious theory at this stage.

Theory? How is it then that I can drive a few miles and see most of it?

The Volt, Leaf and Focus EV are very real. Two are in production and the Focus EV is coming hard. Every major automaker is going with EV's & hybrids to increase their fleet mileage average under the US's next round of Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards, which will have a new formulation that makes them harder to meet without a mix of new techs (AutoWeek). They'll require 62 mpg by 2025.

You can drive by that Focus plant and see the solar arrays & production starts in a few months. Those major retailer charging stations are going in this fall. WalMarts arrays are already on the roof & Meijers (bigger stores than WalMart) are on the short list.

As for the study about capacity - its been repeated by other groups and confirmed.

As for using solar trees; I could call Detroit Edison today and order such an array today, and the payment scheme I posted is already in place & being used by their customers.

Those Argonne batteries go into production @ GM in 2-3 years, and they will drastically lower battery costs for the entire auto industry. GM and Ford are committed to having much of their fleets electric or hybrid in a few years.

Printable solar panels are already in production in the US, and there are businesses in my city using them. The tech in my post just makes them cheaper & more flexible.

[Brian Ellis]

Theory? How is it then that I can drive a few miles and see most of it?

The Volt, Leaf and Focus EV are very real. Two are in production and the Focus EV is coming hard. Every major automaker is going with EV's & hybrids to increase their fleet mileage average under the US's next round of Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards, which will have a new formulation that makes them harder to meet without a mix of new techs (AutoWeek). They'll require 62 mpg by 2025.

You can drive by that Focus plant and see the solar arrays & production starts in a few months. Those major retailer charging stations are going in this fall. WalMarts arrays are already on the roof & Meijers (bigger stores than WalMart) are on the short list.

As for the study about capacity - its been repeated by other groups and confirmed.

As for using solar trees; I could call Detroit Edison today and order such an array today, and the payment scheme I posted is already in place & being used by their customers.

Those Argonne batteries go into production @ GM in 2-3 years, and they will drastically lower battery costs for the entire auto industry. GM and Ford are committed to having much of their fleets electric or hybrid in a few years.

Printable solar panels are already in production in the US, and there are businesses in my city using them. The tech in my post just makes them cheaper & more flexible.

It will cease to be pious theory when there are a few million pure EVs on the road, at least 90% of them with satisfied owners after a few years' practical experience.

[Dr Mordrid]

Quite frankly, that's a ridiculous standard. Strong hybrids and EREV's like Volt (and those by Toyota, Daimler, Ford etc) will be the more successful electrics, not pure EV's. This because of range anxiety. Fast battery-swap systems like Better Place will mitigate this a bit, but hybrids and EREV will be what gets manufacturers past CAFE 2025.