Michigan: silencers, suppressors and machine guns OK

[Dr Mordrid]

This has been coming for a while.

To own a Class III weapon or device like these you fill out the ATF Form 4, get it signed by the local Sheriffs office, send it in with a check for $200 along with fingerprints, a photo and proof of US citizenship.

Detroit Free Press....

Attorney general: Michigan gun owners can use silencers, suppressors

Michigan law permits gun owners to obtain and use noise suppressors or silencers as long as they first go through a federal permitting process, according to a formal opinion released today by Attorney General Bill Schuette.
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Schuette's opinion is a victory for Michigan gun rights groups and shooting enthusiasts who said uncertainty about their legality made it virtually impossible to possess and use silencers here. According to advocates, silencers are useful under some circumstances for hunting, and at shooting ranges located within earshot of residential areas.

The attorney general's opinion parallels one issued four years ago regarding the possession of automatic weapons in Michigan. Then-Attorney General Mike Cox found that machine guns could be legally possessed by Michigan citizens who obtained authorization from the U.S. Department of Justice.
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Joel Fulton, president of the Southside Sportsman Club, said in a statement that Schuette's opinion brings Michigan "into the mainstream." Thirty-eight states permit citizens to possess silencers, according to the National Rifle Association.

Fulton said use of the devices is just good manners.

"It is considered rude to your neighbors to make excessive noise that disrupts their peace and quiet," he said.

[Brian Ellis]

"It is considered rude to your neighbors to make excessive noise that disrupts their peace and quiet," he said.

Especially when you are shooting your wife.

You do have crazy gun laws, don't you?

[MultimediaMan]

Yep, a good thing. Brian is freaking out, but here's a little statistic to mute the bark...

How many crimes have committed with lawfully-owned Class III weapons since 1934: One and it was a crooked police officer who shot a drug dealer with a personally-owned weapon.

Yes... Class III weapons owners are generally the most law abiding folks there are.

[Dr Mordrid]

For over 15 years gun rights have been expanded at the state level by administrations and legislatures of both parties, so it really isn't much of a political issue either - it's been recognized that absent a cop in every other driveway, and in a nation this spread out, people should have not only the right to self defense but the means to accomplish that.

An interesting thing to emerge are the demographics most taking advantage of this are women and senior citizens - those most vulnerable to attack. They make up both the majority of weapons sales and the majority of those getting concealed carry permits. My 31 y/o daughter now carries a Smith & Wesson Military & Police 9mm automatic.

Women can get pistols that are pink and bras & underwear with built-in holsters, and the other day I saw a walker for handicappers that had a hidden holster in its carry basket

[Brian Ellis]

How many crimes have been committed with UNlawfully-owned Class III weapons since 1934?

And guess how these are obtained.

I still say your gun laws are crazy. On a par with present-day Libya. Anything goes

[Dr Mordrid]

Most all illegally owned automatic weapons aren't stolen legal weapons but illegally imported, illegally converted semi-automatic weapons or home-built. About 20 years ago a high school metal shop teacher near here was arrested by ATF because he had his students running an assembly line. They aren't that hard to make, especially if rifling the barrel isn't a big need.

In spite of what was depicted in films like Scarface, in 1980's Miami less than 1% of all homicides involved machine guns. Miami then was supposedly a "machine gun Mecca" and drug trafficking capital of the U.S. Although there are no national figures to, it's very reasonable to assume machine gun deaths were lower elsewhere.

Since 1934 to the latest records I can find (2008) there have been two homicides committed with legally owned automatic weapons.

One was a murder committed by a cop. On September 15, 1988 a 13-year veteran of the Dayton, Ohio PD used his MAC-11 .380 submachine gun to kill a police informant. He plead guilty in 1990, and he and an accomplice were sentenced to 18 years to life.

The other homicide occurred on September 14, 1992, also in Ohio, when a physician killed another physician, also using a MAC-11. This physician was later found to have been stalking others. He got 18 to life.

[cjolley]

You guys seriously need a statistics class, or to reread "How to Lie with Statistics"

Arguing that the future results of the general ownership of auto weapons can be predicted by the past results of sharply constrained ownership is just silly.


PS, The silencer thing is not that big of a deal. I think it's already been pointed out here that real suppressors don't work as well as movie ones.

[MultimediaMan]

Bite your tongue...there are quite a few suppressors which are "Hollywood" quiet, but you won't find them on high-power rifles. (Do a search on YouTube for the AWC MK9C/ Gemtech MK-9C and watch a few videos with 9mm burp guns using subsonic ammunition...)

There are a lot of .22 suppressors which are extremely quiet... rivaling a Red Ryder BB Gun.

The big thing about suppressors is size...it's hard to make one both compact and quiet. Quiet isn't hard... quiet and small is.

[Dr Mordrid]

>
Arguing that the future results of the general ownership of auto weapons can be predicted by the past results of sharply constrained ownership is just silly.

Just answering Brian's question about 1934 on.

PS, The silencer thing is not that big of a deal. I think it's already been pointed out here that real suppressors don't work as well as movie ones.

As MMM said small caliber silencers can be make a weapon very quiet, especially with a round like the .22 which can be subsonic and are the favorites of Mafia hit-men for assassinations. Sometimes gangsta's they don't even use manufactured guns but home-made zip-guns which are near impossible to trace, or find once disposed of.

[cjolley]

I sure know that about 22 silencers. A guy I worked for had one for the 22 rifle he used to kill rats in his chicken house right in the middle of town.

But I don't think you are going to run into too many quiet machine guns any time soon.
Or any of the guns Doc talks about

[MultimediaMan]

It's coming... there is an interesting fait accompli here: the 2nd. Amendment is now understood and recognized as an individual right. Silencers, machine guns and other unusual weapons are regulated through a $200 tax. However, the SCOTUS has many times ruled you cannot tax an indivudual right (Poll Taxes)... it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[Dr Mordrid]

Poll tax. Hmmmm....

As to fabricated guns - they're common and easy enough that they're manufactured in prison, I've seen them built into Maglite's and old cellphones in the real world and in jail they use scavenged plumbing fixtures.

A .380 or .22 machine pistol can be made in most any home shop with basic metalworking tools using standard square and round section tubings, steel wire and flat steel, and these too aren't uncommon on the street. I could make one in 2-3 hours. Want to see a pdf of some plans? The ones I have aren't even the simplest.

[cjolley]

Except for hobbyists, who just like to own unusual items, why would anyone spend the money on a silencer?
Or a machine gun?
Of what practical civilian use are either of them?

[Dr Mordrid]

Silencers: for most that get them not everyone lives near a gun range, so if you are practicing on private property it helps keep the noise complaints down. Other people use them while hunting - some landowners decline hunter access solely based on the noise of gunfire.

Full autos: you say 'why?' while some shooters would say 'why not?' Other than just pure entertainment value (they are a scream to shoot) those interested in survival preparation would want to maximize their defensive capabilities. Since the Heller and McDonald decisions both recognized the reasons given by the Framers I'll let them speak for themselves, plus one more that may surprise some -

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
-- Mahatma Gandhi

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government"
-- Thomas Jefferson, 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"
-- George Washington

"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
-- Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-188

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

[cjolley]

Allowing hunting with silencers is crazy, no ifs, ands, or buts.

And I'm not sure I understand the point of those old quotes.
The world has left that reality behind. The army of the federal government would mow down a rebel army like blades of grass no matter what the rebels were armed with.
That's just the way it is.