Justice on the way

[Brian Ellis]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-17684429

A Florida neighbourhood watch volunteer has been charged with second-degree, unpremeditated murder over the death of unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin.

Not short of time! This could be a long-term turn-around point in US gun laws if it ends up at the Supreme Court.

[Umfriend]

Doubt it. Even if Z. were to be found guilty then, obviously, I need to be able to carry at all times so as to be able to protect myself against trigger-happy neighbourhood watches!

I don't see how this will not become a disaster either way. I think it is really an issue to have a fair trial, by jury no less, given the publicity this affair has drawn already and naming suspects including pictures does not help.

[Dr Mordrid]

The (unfortunately) usual trial by media went on for months, and most of the widespread anti-Zimmerman info later proved to be false.

- this was no "child" but a 6 foot tall 160 lb 17 year old football player. The pictures most often shown were taken when he was 13-15.

- Zimmerman did not out-size him. Early reports had him 6 foot tall and 250 lbs, but he is actually 5' 9" and 170 lbs. Easily out-leverage-able by a 6 foot football player.

- early reports had Zimmerman using racial epiphets during the 911 call, but later analysis refutes this; "f**iing coon" became "f***ing cold".

- Zimmerman's reference to the stranger being "black" was not out of the blue but in response to a question by the 911 operator about the subjects etnicoty, which NBC edited out of the transcript and recording. The producer was fired.

- Zimmerman was not on Neighborhood Watch patrol at the time of the incident but on his way to the store. As such, he was not in violation of NW guidelines but carrying consistent with his pistol license. He simply observed something suspicious and acted on it. What's suspicious? A stranger walking between homes and around a closed community center at night might qualify..

- it is not illegal in Florida, or most any other state, to follow a suspicious person. Neither is it illegal to not follow 911's instructions as they are not sworn officers. They can suggest, not order.

- Zimmerman claims that Trayvon disappeared, he started back to his truck, then he was blindsided by Trayvon and knocked to the ground by a blow to the face which broke his nose. Medical reports will tell about the nose.

- the police report says Zimmerman had grass on his back, which is consistant with his claim and an eyewitness report that he was on his back with Trayvon on top beating his into the sidewalk just before the shooting. This will be a high hurdle for the prosecution.

- ABC broadcast the video of Zimmerman and claimed he had no wounds indicating he was uninjured, arguing against his claim of being attacked by Trayvon. Later image enhancements showed both head wounds and possible blood stains on his coat. ABC also edited out footage of the police examining his head wounds. These wounds are another high hurdle for the prosecution because they too are consistant with Zimmerman being on his back & Trayvon pounding his head on the sidewalk.

- Florida law specifically says that if you are under attack and have fear of serious injury you cannuse deadly force. Being on your back getting your head into concrete by a 6 foot football player does not qualify how?

IMO this (aggressive by reputation) prosecutor brought charges because of the racially charged political environment, with the New Black Panther Party threatening violence, Al Sharpton & Jessie Jackson rabble-rousing, and the white supremacists taking advantage of it all. This almost immediately lowered the situational temperature, but look for it to ramp up again if the judge tosses the charges or the jury acquits.

[cjolley]

...
IMO this (aggressive by reputation) prosecutor brought charges because...

Compare your story with another of exactly the same facts:
Travon Martin is an invited guest in his fathers neighborhood walking perfectly innocently along when he perceives that he is being stalked by an unknown stranger.
Florida's laws do not require him to wait around to be attacked and so he get's the drop on the stalker only to be killed because he was really not a fighter and had no idea what he was doing.

Think of "Rashomon."
Here's unique idea.
How about we wait for the trial evidence.

[Dr Mordrid]

Compare your story with another of exactly the same facts:
Travon Martin is an invited guest in his fathers neighborhood walking perfectly innocently along when he perceives that he is being stalked by an unknown stranger.

Florida's laws do not require him to wait around to be attacked and so he get's the drop on the stalker only to be killed because he was really not a fighter and had no idea what he was doing.

A HS football player who hasn't a clue about applying physical force and one on one conflict? Quite a concept

News Flash: football is stylized hand to hand combat.

Also, just because someone is following him that does not give Trayvon the right to make first physical contact. If that's what he did then Trayvon was the instigator of the fight and the fault is his.

Also - as you say he did not live in the neighborhood, and this was a rare visit therefore it's no surprise if he were looked on as suspicious by a resident. How often do you do a doubletake on an unfamiliar person? Now add that there had been a rash of burglaries and Zimmerman had every right to investigate. Also, Florida has a strong Citizens Arrest law - they have identical powers as an out of jurisdiction police officers.

Think of "Rashomon."

Here's unique idea. How about we wait for the trial evidence.

Agreed, but with all the falsehoods being spread in the worldwide media the above had to be said.

A critical bit of evidence will be the angle of the wound channel and the gunpowder stippling patterns on Trayvon's cloting & body. If they're consistant with Zimmerman being on the ground, Trayvon being on top and the shot being taken at close range this case is cooked.

[cjolley]

A HS football player who hasn't a clue about applying physical force and combat? Quite a concept.

Not to hear his coach tell it.
I've seen an interview where he seemed very surprised at the idea of Trayvon Martin being aggressive toward anyone.

Can you wrap your head around the idea that Florida's stand your ground law may be on Trayvon Martin's side in this story?
If someone started shadowing me somewhere I had a perfect right to be I might think of them as a threat.

[Dr Mordrid]

Stand Your Ground only applies if you are not the instigator. The 911 ends with Zimmerman stating Trayvon had bugged out, which is fine but - if Trayvon then circled around and blindsided Zimmerman as claimed then SYG only attaches to Zimmerman. Trayvon has no right to instigate a physical attact to counter someone following him. He can walk up and ask what's up, but that's it and even that is not wise.

[Brian Ellis]

I have read both sides of the media "evidence" and can conclude, from that and various witness statements, combined with the fact that Z waited weeks before a medical expertise, that this was a cold-blooded attack on a kid carrying a can of drink and a pack of snacks back to his relatives' house. Z put a lot of emphasis that the kid was hooded - not surprising, as it was raining!

Dr M: you have no more "evidence" than we have, yet you seem convinced that M deserved everything he got, quoting all sorts of dubious "evidence", such as "grass on his back" from a hard "sidewalk", medical "evidence" gathered weeks after the event. Even if Z's story were true, his nose cartilage would have had ample time to render it indistinguishable from any of the other fights he was involved in. Also the mark on Z's head as seen in the published video are not in a position justified by his story; they are far too near the crown of his head and not on the back. This looks more like a mark from being hit with a contending object, such as a cop's night stick. As for the blood, whose was it? Shooting someone at point blank range can produce a lot of back-splatter. No, there is too much Fox and NRA in your contentions, for my taste.

[dZeus]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-17684429



Not short of time! This could be a long-term turn-around point in US gun laws if it ends up at the Supreme Court.

Interesting...

are you suggesting that would be a good thing, considering the totalitarian direction of recent and current US government (patriot act, DHS, etc.), as well as the disconnect between the interests of the populace and the behaviour of legislators (i.e. members of congress, etc)?

[KRSESQ]

A billion damned security cameras in this country and NOT ONE of them aimed in the right direction that night!

I keep coming back to the "injuries" Zimmerman "suffered." All the video I've seen (both enhanced and uninhanced) reveals very little (if any) blood on Zimmerman. The markings on his head could just as well result from a bad haircut or the hair-growth over an old scar. As to his "broken nose," every broken nose I've ever seen involved lots of blood and plenty of facial bruising. One kid I saw get slapped by a seven-year-old girl ended up with blood down the entire front of his shirt, and two very bright shiners. And his nose wasn't even broken! Where is Zimmerman's blood? Where is the bruising? The guy doesn't even have a black eye.

If Zimmerman's nose had been broken, where is the doctor's report? Where are the police photos documenting his injuries? Why was Zimmerman's ambulance cancelled? Why did Zimmerman not seek further medical attention for his "broken nose?" The logical conclusion is that none of those on the scene thought Zimmerman's injuries were serious enough to merit medical attention or police documentation, including Zimmerman himself.

If Zimmerman had been on his back with Martin on top of him when he shot, wouldn't he have Martin's blood on the front of his clothes? Where is it?

All I know for certain is this: If I was walking down the street one evening doing my best to mind my own business, and I realized I was being followed by someone in a car, and then someone looking like Zimmerman got out and approached me with a gun, asking me what my business was, you can bet your ass I'd be ready to either fight like a madman or run like a bunny. The first words out of my mouth would be "got a badge?" And the next would be "f*%k off!" Then I'D be the one dialing 911. THAT was probably Martin's fatal mistake right there. But then, who would the cops believe? The black teen-ager or the white "neighborhood watchman"?

When Zimmerman approached Martin, what Martin doubtless saw coming toward him was a skinhead with a gun. If he did throw the first punch at Zimmerman, it was probably in the belief that he was literally fighting for his life. Turns out he was right. And he lost.

[cjolley]

Stand Your Ground only applies if you are not the instigator. The 911 ends with Zimmerman stating Trayvon had bugged out...

Which says absolutely nothing at all about who the instigator of the final confrontation was.
For all you know Zimmerman kept looking for, found the kid, and confronted him.

[Jammrock]

This needs a bump to Political.

[Dr Mordrid]

Which says absolutely nothing at all about who the instigator of the final confrontation was. For all you know Zimmerman kept looking for, found the kid, and confronted him.

Absent new evidence that's 50/50 either way.

In civil court the standard is 'the preponderance of the evidence', a low degree of certainty often cited as 51% certainty but it can also be applied to slightly leaning tossups. However, in a criminal trial the standard is 'beyond a shadow of a doubt', a far higher standard. 50/50 is not it.

This gets very interesting in the coming arraignment hearing since it it is there where Zimmerman can first invoke Stand Your Ground and ask for a dismissal of the charges by the judge. Since this is not a trial this request has a lower standard of proof, specifically the civil standard of 'preponderance of the evidence.'

Yup, if the judge feels that it's even slightly leaning in Zimmerman's favor he can dismiss it right there and he gets released.

[cjolley]

Here is the Affidavit of Probable Cause filed by the prosecutors.

[Dr Mordrid]

The legal analysts on both sides of the aisle are already scratching their heads about that affidavit because of the conclusions drawn vs. the known evidence it quotes. Smells of a "let's kick this can until the racial stuff cools off" prosecution.

Mediaite....

Harvard Professor Alan Dershowitz Says Zimmerman Arrest Affidavit Is “‘Irresponsible And Unethical”

Harvard University law professor Alan Dershowitz appeared on MSNBC’s Hardball where fill-in host Michel Smerconish asked him his opinions of the arrest warrant issued and carried out for alleged Trayvon Martin murderer, George Zimmerman. Dershowitz called the affidavit justifying Zimmerman’s arrest “not only thin, it’s irresponsible.” He went on to criticize the decision to charge Zimmerman for second degree murder by special prosecutor Angela Corey as being politically motivated.

“You’ve seen the affidavit of probable cause. What do you make of it,” Smerconish asked. “It won’t suffice,” Dershowitz replied without hesitation.

“Most affidavits of probable cause are very thin. This is so thin that it won’t make it past a judge on a second degree murder charge,” Dershowitz said. “There’s simply nothing in there that would justify second degree murder.”

Dershowitz said that the elements that would constitute that crime are non-existent in the affidavit. “It’s not only thin, it’s irresponsible,” said Dershowitz.

Dershowitz went on to strongly criticize Corey’s decision to move forward with the case against Zimmerman. “I think what you have here is an elected public official who made a campaign speech last night for reelection when she gave her presentation and overcharged. This case will not – if the evidence is no stronger than what appears in the probable cause affidavit – this case will result in an acquittal.”

Smerconish identified the total lack of any mention of the supposed fight that occurred between Martin and Zimmerman prior to Martin being shot. He said he was disappointed that he did not see any mention of that conflict that led to Martin’s murder.

“But it’s worse than that,” said Dershowitz. “It’s irresponsible and unethical in not including material that favors the defendant.”

“This affidavit does not even make it to probable cause,” Dershowitz concluded. “everything in the affidavit is completely consistent with a defense of self-defense. Everything.”