NASA suspends non-ISS contacts with Russia

[Dr Mordrid]

The problem is that "government" was a military junta that overthrew a constitutional government. That and shortly after the US and OAS booted the SOB's the govt. was restored and an election held.

[Umfriend]

And the US has never supported military juntas.

[Dr Mordrid]

That doesn't excuse what Russia and Cuba have done, especially recently.

[KRSESQ]

And the US has never supported military juntas.

I'm having a hard time following the reasoning. It sounds like you're making the argument that just because the US did some shitty things to other nations in its past, that makes it ok for Russia to do shitty things to other nations now. A "you did it first so they can do it now" argument.

No.

It wasn't right for the US to do a lot of things in the past any more than it was right for Russia to do what it's done in its past or what it's doing now. "You bullied people around in the past so it's ok for Russia to bully people now." That's the king of all bullshit statements. It's lame-ass excuse-making.

Or perhaps you're trying to say that because of its past the US doesn't have the right to criticize Russia's actions now. I might grant you that one. But I would submit that Russia's actions worldwide have been at least every bit as reprehensible as any the US has made, if not moreso. I would further submit that the US's mistakes have for the most part wound up out in the open for all the world to see (Americans are pretty transparent in that regard) while Russia has historically hidden its actions in a cloak of lies and obfuscation and finger-pointing at the US. For God's sake, it was Poland that convinced the Russians to come clean about the Chernobyl disaster (nearly a week after the explosion!), while 3 Mile Island played out live in real time on worldwide TV.

Yes the US has told lies and kept secrets, but generally not very well or for very long. Russia on the other hand has built its entire society around lies and secrets. One could be excused for concluding it's what they do best.

As for Grenada, I'm willing to defer to the Grenadians' opinion as to whether the US invasion was a good thing or not. If the opinion polls are to be believed, Grenadian opinion of the US invasion runs about 60% in favor. And frankly, theirs is the only opinion on the subject that matters.

[Brian Ellis]

The US can do no wrong; Russia can do no right. 8|

[Umfriend]

No. I would wish for any government criticising another not to take the same or similar actions in the future. I have little hope that the US would not do anything it has in the past in the future. So, it may not be particularly valid, but the reasoning is that as you'll be doing shitty things, it is less appropriate to criticise others.

I realise we probably know much more about US-wrongdoings then Russia's but I'm more interested in accountability, which is on a government level, not public (And here, of course, Russia scores way lower).

I wonder how the Grenadians felt about the invasion when it actually happened. Might be a bleaker picture. However, if 60% is now in favor, there is relative freedom and democracy then perhaps it was one of those things that although they should not have happened, we still should be gratefull it did.

[KRSESQ]

The US can do no wrong; Russia can do no right. 8|

You're the only one here making THAT assertion.

[KRSESQ]

No. I would wish for any government criticising another not to take the same or similar actions in the future. I have little hope that the US would not do anything it has in the past in the future. So, it may not be particularly valid, but the reasoning is that as you'll be doing shitty things, it is less appropriate to criticise others.

I realise we probably know much more about US-wrongdoings then Russia's but I'm more interested in accountability, which is on a government level, not public (And here, of course, Russia scores way lower).

I wonder how the Grenadians felt about the invasion when it actually happened. Might be a bleaker picture. However, if 60% is now in favor, there is relative freedom and democracy then perhaps it was one of those things that although they should not have happened, we still should be gratefull it did.

One telling image from the Grenada invasion that sticks with me was of two American soldiers standing on a road. A Grenadian man carrying a jug of water and a glass walked up to them. He poured some water from the jug into the glass and drank it, to show the water was ok. Then he filled the glass again and handed it to one of the soldiers who drank it gratefully. Then the man refilled the glass and handed it to the other soldier who also drank. From the smile on the man's face it was obvious he was happy as hell that the Americans were there.

This was not an isolated incident. Nearly all of the 6000 soldiers who were in Grenada came home with stories of gratitude from the Grenadians. True, there were many tragic stories as well. No one's tried to sugar-coat that (well, maybe a light frosting of glucose). And today there's no shortage of articles critical of the invasion. But those articles tend to dwell on the legality and the justification for the invasion and the international response. Very few of those articles address the opinion of the Grenadians themselves.

[paulw]

I see in tonites new the Russians are sending in their trouble makers into East Ukraine to riot and the like giving Herr Putin another excuse to annex another part of East Ukraine.

[Dr Mordrid]

Yup. Never feed a wild bear - it just wants more and tears up the campsite to get it.

[Umfriend]

This was not an isolated incident. Nearly all of the 6000 soldiers who were in Grenada came home with stories of gratitude from the Grenadians.

Of course, such stories are well known from lesser popular conflicts as well.

But those articles tend to dwell on the legality and the justification for the invasion and the international response. Very few of those articles address the opinion of the Grenadians themselves.

Funny that, isn't it? It seems to me that, save for cases of genocide and/or mass ethnic relocation etc, their opinion should be the cornerstone of all evaluation, be it of the conflict itself or the *law* against whihc the legality is checked.