EVs: North American Charging Standard

[Dr Mordrid]

US and Canadian drivers will be getting a new option in 2026;

Rivian R2 SUV

Rivian already sells the R1T pickup and it's pretty nice, and successful. They have facilities in the US, Canada, and the UK. Both vehicles are built on the same skateboard chassis, they will support NACS in 2025, and they're fairly powerful.

https://carbuzz.com/news/rivian-r2-compact-suv-will-cost-40000-and-arrive-sooner-than-expected

Rivian R2 SUV.jpg

R1T

[Umfriend]

Toll roads here in New Zealand are now run by a government agency and using number plate recognition cameras at the toll booths. They tried local city manual tolling but it was an expensive nightmare.
We have smart meters for power and the gas companies are now installing smart gas meters as well but our gas meter is still manual reading.

So we have smart meters in the Netherlands as well but they can't distinguish between load types (e.g. car battery charging vs oven or residential battery charging). I am at a 240V/75A connection (3x25A) and as if and when heating is electrified, standard connections will perhaps become larger even so, yes, charging off the side may be far easier here. They exist for gas as well but we're still on the manual one. They were supposed to be replaced but I suspect that given that we may choose to electrify all, that got postponed for now.

So toll booths, that is the issue. Where toll roads and booths make sense, there really isn't the space with us. Also, I *think* one always has toll-free alternatives like, e.g., in France? They're a nuisance to drive but there are certainly people that chose these to avoid toll. We have no way of providing a free alternative, again due to space. I think our freeways are high-up on the list by density of run-off/run-on ramps for instance.

[paulw]

I agree on 2nd meters. Annual checks are great but I wasn't aware they were mandatory throughout EU and I think only after 3y first, no?
Toll roads in the Netherlands would be a logistical disaster.

Toll roads here in New Zealand are now run by a government agency and using number plate recognition cameras at the toll booths. They tried local city manual tolling but it was an expensive nightmare.
We have smart meters for power and the gas companies are now installing smart gas meters as well but our gas meter is still manual reading.

[Dr Mordrid]

I'm thinking the other way around, as domestic use electricity will probably be lower taxed than EV charging: how to detect that people are plugging in EV in a normal socket? Overnight charging is fast enough through a normal wall plug.
We also have smart readers (that are read out via the grid), my point is that you would need meters that detect the type of load.

Plugging the EV into a "normal" US wall plug would be 120v, which would take days to charge. 240v is for heavier equipment like clothes dryers, an electric hot water heater, or an electric range. Now we are adding EVs to that list.

Faster charging, such as via a 240v->NACS adapter cable, would mean another 240v circuit in the garage connected to the primary meter. The time of use* data on the primary meter showing 15-45 kWh at 2200-0600 would be a dead giveaway that the car was being charged on the wrong meter. From here excrement flows downhill.

* our smart meters include time of use so they can bill a surcharge during the peak use period of 1500-1900 Monday-Friday

[VJ]

We already have Smart Meters and they can be read by a vehicle driving by your house. Having it tied to a Time of Day or a Fixed Fee monthly subscription, and only connected to the level 2 charger with an NACS cable and plug, pretty much precludes it being used to run a refrigerator etc.

I'm thinking the other way around, as domestic use electricity will probably be lower taxed than EV charging: how to detect that people are plugging in EV in a normal socket? Overnight charging is fast enough through a normal wall plug.
We also have smart readers (that are read out via the grid), my point is that you would need meters that detect the type of load.

[Dr Mordrid]

Tire pressure monitoring sensors are already mandatory, but I've never heard of profile checking sensors... But I'm also arguing that installing a second meter at home is not straight forward, as there is no way of checking to which meter a car was plugged in (unless you have really smart meters, but that would mean upgrading the meters to identify the loads, which probably would bring some privacy issues)

We already have Smart Meters and they can be read by a vehicle driving by your house. Having it tied to a Time of Day or a Fixed Fee monthly subscription, and only connected to the level 2 charger with an NACS cable and plug, pretty much precludes it being used to run a refrigerator etc.

In Most states we have a road tax paid x% per gallon of gasoline. Paying by kWh would be an easy switch over, and could also be applied to Level 3 chargers on the road.

Alternatively, just make some roads toll roads at specific times: it not only would serve as tax, but also help with traffic congestion.

In most of the US that would be a logistical nightmare because of our low population density and long distances. Besides that, it violates the whole idea of the Interstate Highway System. Where toll roads are used they are state or local roads or bridges.

[Umfriend]

I agree on 2nd meters. Annual checks are great but I wasn't aware they were mandatory throughout EU and I think only after 3y first, no?
Toll roads in the Netherlands would be a logistical disaster.

[VJ]

Tire pressure monitoring sensors are already mandatory, but I've never heard of profile checking sensors... But I'm also arguing that installing a second meter at home is not straight forward, as there is no way of checking to which meter a car was plugged in (unless you have really smart meters, but that would mean upgrading the meters to identify the loads, which probably would bring some privacy issues).

But, in EU at least, you have the mandatory annual technical check. It would be a small thing to use that to read out the mileage and tax based on the number of km driven since the previous technical check. I believe mileages are already logged in some countries for the car passports (that prevent cheating with the mileage of second hand cars).

Alternatively, just make some roads toll roads at specific times: it not only would serve as tax, but also help with traffic congestion.

[Umfriend]

So I get the issue with tires but if we can install second meters in homes, can't we have sensors in cars checking profile (and pressure). That way we not only have a taxable base that is harder to defraud/arbitrage, we also have an additional safetycheck. Surely, people have a financial icentive to delay replacing tires already.

[VJ]

That is very specific for the US...
Not many homes in EU have a second meter, and we all are at 240V. Having a second meter will cost (installation plus annual fees), and even if it would be mandated to have a second meter for a vehicle charger, there is no way to check if people do not plug in their car to have it count on other meter. That is what I meant that it would be difficult to enforce. Is not like with diesel that you can add a colourant to the electricity..

Tariffs depend, can go from single price, day/night rate to peak/day/night. Regulations are being prepared to introduce an hourly electricity price market. Belgium already has introduced a capacity tariff: the size of your highest peak power in a 15 minute interval for the last 3 months is counted to contribute to your energy cost. The goal is to flatten people's usage, by making peaks more costly - they always count some minimum peak, so they try to get people to below this. It does make it less interesting to have a faster charger (ie. 22 kW or more) at home, as it will increase your energy cost due to the fact that you will have a high peak power.

[Dr Mordrid]

but how many people will install a second meter just for charging when they can plug it in to a normal power socket??

The vast majority so they can use 240vac charging.

There are 2 levels of home charging in the US, and this makes up over 80% of charging. Usually in the overnight off-peak hours when the rates are much cheaper.

Level 1 is 120vac 20A. About 5 miles of range/hour, several days for a fill up. Mostly useful for plug-in hybrids.

Level 2 is 240vac 15-50A. About 35 miles of range/hour (depends on the vehicle on board charger). A full charge overnight.

Away from home, Level 3 is a fast DC charger like Tesla Supercharger (now the North American Charging Standard) or CCS1. Mostly for trips.

Our local utility will install a second meter and a Level 2 charger (up to 50 ft run) for about $1200, financing it for up to 10 years, and you can get a $500 rebate if you qualify (own an EV, and enroll in their time of day charging plan (encourages off-peak use)).

If, like many homes in this region, you already have a second meter and 240 vac circuit in the garage or out building (home businesses), all you need to do is buy the Level 2 charger and install it. Rebate still applies.

[paulw]

but how many people will install a second meter just for charging when they can plug it in to a normal power socket??

[Dr Mordrid]

.Tax on kWh is difficult when people charge from home: you have to distinguish between the power used for living and the power used for driving (at least, here those would be differently taxed.

It's not difficult at all, the local utility will install a second meter for the home charge point(s). The power through that meter gets charged the kWh tax. You can pay both bills online together, or use auto-pay. Said utility will give you $500 toward the installation of the charge points.

As far as US EV adoption goes, the upcoming Q2 Tesla numbers may be impressive....

https://insideevs.com/news/672690/tesla-model-y-second-only-ford-f-150-best-selling-vehicle-us/

Tesla Model Y Second Only To Ford F-150 As Best-Selling Vehicle In US

The EV doubled US registrations in January-April 2023, becoming America's No. 1 passenger car and second best selling vehicle overall.

[VJ]

Does that include a VAT?

Yes, that was with VAT, for the base model. Cars or much more expensive here in Europe, partly because of VAT, import duties and additional taxes. It also has to do with the manufacturers not offering many lower models anymore (partly because of safety requirements: auto braking is almost mandatory; from this year new models have to recognize the maximum speed through map-data and cameras and limit to it - you can override it, but you have to do something more than just driving: the car has to make it more difficult to speed, https://www.carthrottle.com/post/all...ers-in-europe/ ). So while I agree that the list price on website in the US is not the user price, there still is a huge difference.

Michigan in quite a few other states have replaced the gasoline tax revenues from EV with a fee on their license tags every year. Very likely, this will be supplemented with a tax on each kWh dispensed by charge points like the Tesla Supercharger. Another option is a tax per mile driven. That decision is being made in our legislature this term.

I think the tax on kWh is simpler and less intrusive privacy wise. There's also the possibility that the miles driven tax could be unconstitutional because of the need to track you. Such tracking has run into trouble in Federal courts, requiring a warrant.

You don't have to track people to tax per mile driven: it is enough to know the mileage in a given timeframe - it does not matter where it was driven. In Belgium they have the plan of taxing some roads more during rush hour (as a way of traffic congestion regulation) and that would require some form of tracking - they are still not sure how to do it. OTOH, some trajectory control speed checking already reads license plates and knows which cars were in that section of the road at what time... So it is already happening.

Tax on kWh is difficult when people charge from home: you have to distinguish between the power used for living and the power used for driving (at least, here those would be differently taxed).

My suggestion would be to tax tires. If you drive a lot and/or big/heavy vehicles you pay more which I think is reasonable. Also, it is hard to avoid or arbitrage.

No... good tires are a safety aspect. Taxing them more would make them more expensive and would get more people to use them longer than is safe.

[Dr Mordrid]

So I know nothing about all this but our next car is most likely to be full-electric. We tend do drive our cars for a long time. Currently, since 2010, a Volvo V70 which is, in Europe, considered to be a larger car. Now that we're on holiday in the US (really gr8!) I realise I will have to get used to whatever car will be next. For instance, we have cruise control but nowadays they have adaptive and it works awesome! I have to admit that the Suburban was a bit to large to my taste. I felt like driving an apartment building and never got a sense of how far it extended. But the Nissan Armada is awesome.

One of our large vehicles was a Dodge Sportsman B300 15 seat window van. We could pull out the seats and turn it into a camper. Also had a 1976 Cadillac Eldorado - a ship with wheels. Great for hauling our boat to the family up-north house on Lake Huron. Take the boat out, catch some fish, have dinner on the beach

On taxes, I really dislike the notion of being tracked for miles / location but charging per kWh, I think, will be an issue: How do you tax on charged through your own PV?

We pay a fixed free on our yearly license tags. There is also talk of a state kWh tax on the Level 3 DC chargers and those who charge using AC Level 2 (240 vac) from the utility (on a separate smart meter). Installing and using PV is subsidized through tax credits, and some utilities will buy excess power from you during peak load periods. Off peak power, usually overnight, is sold at a discount and used for a large proportion of home charging.