Fascinating Documentary: "Who Killed the Electric Car?"

[Jerry Jones]

Just finished watching it at a local independent movie theatre:

http://tinyurl.com/l4nd9

Fascinating stuff.

Great photography and editing.

Electric cars, meanwhile, are making a comeback, according to USA Today, in an article at the following link:

http://tinyurl.com/zpyoh

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Dr Mordrid]

Half of which is rubbish....

[Greebe]

Sarasota Film Society is showing that one here. Good stuff, but a bit dated. I doubt it's half wrong... more like 10% rubbish, 20% speculation and 70% fact.

Two major points they don't mention is the extreme cost of replacement batteries and the distance traveled per charge decreases drastically over time ie say after ~1-2 years of operation.

[Greebe]

Li-ION battery... ~$10,000. Yeah that's expensive... costs won't drop by 50% maybe 20%. Also they have a max cycle limit of 500-1000 (real life says below the lower spec) and it's time to buy new!!!

Toshiba reciently announced they have resolved the cycle limit and will maintain 99% storage capacity after sitting unused for times >30days. But what will the cost of these puppies be and when can we actually see them on the market? God only knows!

The Li Ion Polymer (Lipo) cells I'm currently using have discharge rates of 30C (C=capacity rating of the cell in AmpHours) and are the best industry have atm. Pushing them to these extremes will limit the cells life to ~100 cycles! Of course it's awesome seeing a battery that can weigh as little as 2oz (or less) handle 30amps of current or a 12oz battery do 140 amps sustained (3 cell pack =~1500 watts)

Also current experience dictates that discharging the cells to less than 80%C also limits it's life expectancy even further or operating them @ temps >130f decreases it's life

Some guys only get ~10cycles in competition use, chuck it in the (dispose of properly) bin and buy anew.

[KRSESQ]

I'm still a little fuzzy on how this is any improvement over a nice, efficient 4-stroke internal compustion engine.

All electric motors do is switch the source of greenhouse gasses from the motor itself to a power plant which will likely be using fossil fuels, since no one wants nuclear in the neighborhood. Not to mention the load on the power grid, which no one wants to expand because no one wants high-tension power lines running through their back yards.

Kevin

[Nowhere]

But even "conventional" power plants are much more energy efficient. Of course one would have to do actual number crunching to see if this isn't nullified by transmitting and storing all that energy...
And - it could end up polluting less...aren't filtering methods on powerplants better already than in cars? (even if it would end up similarly...citites would get rid of smog)

BTW, personally I'd gladly live close to nuclear power plant. Actually, if life situtation permits, I'll probably want to move into a place that is as close as possible to the construction site of such power plant. (PL will need to build one in next 15 years...which will be funny because even our current, populist gov knows this, but most people are against such power plunt)

[Jerry Jones]

All electric motors do is switch the source of greenhouse gasses from the motor itself to a power plant which will likely be using fossil fuels.

Yes -- but as the film explains -- burning coal would still be more efficient than burning Middle East oil and we still have vast American supplies of coal and here's a G-R-E-A-T Web page about the forthcoming plug-in hybrids that confirms:

http://tinyurl.com/pgmqz

POPULAR MECHANICS recently *ran the numbers comparing all types of alternative fuel vehicles.

*LINK: http://tinyurl.com/hzhov

"A strong appeal of the electric car--and of a hybrid when it's running on electricity--is that it produces no tailpipe emissions. Even when emissions created by power plants are factored in, electric vehicles emit less than 10 percent of the pollution of an internal-combustion car."

But the film also points out that we haven't even begun to tap the power of wind.

In addition, the charging of the electric cars would take place largely at night when demand would -- in theory -- be relatively low.

Nuclear waste is still the elephant in the room that no country -- not even France -- seems able to resolve.

I don't agree with Doc on this one.

Sorry, Doc.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

By the way, the film features actress Alexandra Paul who explains more about her electric car experience to CNN here:

http://tinyurl.com/lxzxe

"Even if it were getting power solely from electricity derived from coal -- a common criticism of electric cars -- my vehicle (produces) 50 percent less carbon dioxide than a 24 mpg gas car (for a summary of more than 30 studies on the emissions of electric cars, hybrids and plug in hybrids, go to www.sherryboschert.com/FAQ.html). When I have to get new batteries, which I expect I will be when my car is 10 years old, the old ones will be over 90 percent recyclable."

...Ms. Paul's Web site follows...

http://tinyurl.com/ptt88

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

By the way, the film exposes a scandal in the way our country doled out tax deductions to encourage - YES ENCOURAGE - massive American consumption.

When I became a consultant for Ulead, I had to seek the advice of a CPA (certified public accountant) to setup my LLC.

I was STUNNED to find out from my CPA that I could buy a huge SUV (above 6000 gross vehicle weight) and realize a HUGE tax advantage.

Let me tell you it was sick and twisted.

I was almost persuaded to buy one because the financial incentive was so incredible.

Now I understand Congress has finally changed the law to reduce this type of windfall tax benefit.

But when I learned about that stinking loophole, I was really angry.

Because it was all about ordinary Americans being FORCED to subsidize these types of purchases.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

George Schultz, former United States Secretary of State under former GOP President Ronald Reagan -- hardly a "screaming liberal" -- had this to say:

http://www.pluginamerica.com/media/george_schultz.wmv

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Brian Ellis]

Have a look at http://www.cypenv.org/worldenv/files/cars.htm and the links from it. The only acceptable way of making electric cars mainstream is to have 4-5 seaters + baggage space with a 500 km autonomy. The downside is that, in most countries, the generating capacity and grid infrastructure are largely insufficient and would, in fact, require doubling or tripling with nuke power stations (almost no CO2). Is this acceptable to the populace?

As for coal-powered stations feeding the charging circuits, it is not true what the lady pretends. A Prius uses the fossil fuel energy much more efficiently, hence lower CO2 emissions, than an equivalent-sized EV. Did you know that an average coal-fired power station has an overall fuel efficiency even worse than an IC engine? I can quote facts and figures, if required. Viewed holistically, natural gas is even worse for climate change than coal!

However, this thread is not appropriate here; Moderator, please move it to The Lounge. Better still, discuss it at http://www.cypenv.org/smf/index.php where there are already a number of threads discussing EVs, hybrids, fuel efficiency, electricity infrastructure etc.

[Nowhere]

Oh...so coal power plants actually have smaller efficiency than current car engines?

[Brian Ellis]

Yes. typically 30-35% from the boiler fuel feed to the electricity output, and that does not account for the enormous energy costs in mining the coal, sorting it, transporting it from the mine to the power plant and grinding it, not to mention transporting the fly ash out and disposing of it. Some of the more modern plants may get slightly higher, possibly up to 38%.

[Jerry Jones]

As for coal-powered stations feeding the charging circuits, it is not true what the lady pretends. A Prius uses the fossil fuel energy much more efficiently, hence lower CO2 emissions, than an equivalent-sized EV. Did you know that an average coal-fired power station has an overall fuel efficiency even worse than an IC engine? I can quote facts and figures, if required.

Please do.

Here are references that seem to contradict you, Brian.

http://tinyurl.com/pgmqz

http://www.pluginamerica.com/images/EmissionsSummary.pdf

http://tinyurl.com/jvfjn

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

...and that does not account for the enormous energy costs in mining the coal, sorting it, transporting it from the mine to the power plant and grinding it, not to mention transporting the fly ash out and disposing of it. Some of the more modern plants may get slightly higher, possibly up to 38%.

And... Middle East oil costs... by comparison?

C'mon.

You can do better than that.

POPULAR MECHANICS recently *ran the numbers comparing all types of alternative fuel vehicles.

*LINK: http://tinyurl.com/hzhov

"A strong appeal of the electric car--and of a hybrid when it's running on electricity--is that it produces no tailpipe emissions. Even when emissions created by power plants are factored in, electric vehicles emit less than 10 percent of the pollution of an internal-combustion car."

PDF CHART: http://tinyurl.com/gfkfg

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net