Fascinating Documentary: "Who Killed the Electric Car?"

[Gurm]

I've read those reliability surveys. They're rubbish and don't reflect the real-world experiences of anyone I've ever met. They ALSO fail to take into account that you can have the most reliable vehicle in the world but if it's a misery to own and drive, what good is that?

The most DEPENDABLE car I've ever owned? 1995 Volvo 960. For a solid 10 years, we were never ONCE stranded. I can't make the same claim about our Toyota Corolla, our Acura Integra, or (God help us) the Ford Escort.

We once drove the 960 to Florida. Around about Connecticut (3 hours in) I noticed that when we stopped, the car idled rough. But I didn't think much of it at the time, nothing was leaking, etc. Drove all the way to Florida (24 hours of highway driving). Drove around Florida. Drove all the way back. Took the car to the dealership. "It idles rough..."

IT HAD A CRACKED HEAD GASKET. And all it did was idle rough!

Our Ford Escort developed a crack in the head gasket... and we had to replace the entire car!

My Volvo 850 has a hole in the exhaust manifold. It's loud, but runs fine. My Corolla had a hole in the exhaust manifold, and after making a loud banging noise when driving for a few miles, NEVER RAN PROPERLY AGAIN.

So don't go telling me how "reliable" Japanese cars are. I know they supposedly have low repair costs. But then show me a Toyota that still runs nice and has 300,000 miles on it, and I'll show you both of my Volvos and the BMW that I only sold because it was a coupe. All with 300,000+ and still running smooth and strong.

You're very good at finding studies that show what you want them to show, and very bad at providing any sense of realism. Stop with the diatribes and join the really real world. In the really real world people care whether their car SUCKS or not. In the really real world, the state of Massachusetts has REPEATEDLY rejected wind farms as a viable source of power due to them not being cost effective. In the really real world, coal is just as bad as oil, if not worse.

Grow up and join the really real world.

[TransformX]

I'd like to state that I have nothing personal against electric cars or wind power. My problem is that some (many) people are so overzealous about the environment, that while dressing some issues that they see as a problem, they create bigger, worse ones due to lack of proper investigation and planning.
Want to produce an electric car? Great, I'm all for it, but only after you have a FULL study about:
1. Manufacturing costs
2. Recycling
3. Pollution produced during manufacturing and recycling, not many people know how polluting a clean room is.
4. Amount of raw materials consumed by your project during production, maintenence and recycling, also in comparison with the other alternatives.
Example: Is your new car heavier than the alternative? What effect will it have on the tires etc? Will I need special ones? Will I need to replace them more often etc. etc. etc.

Rushing to do something because its 'cool' can be disastrous. Best example is those 'enviromentalists' that torched brand new SUVs, creating more pollution than those cars would create in a lifetime of horrid maintenence.

[Jerry Jones]

Jerry

You have FAR too much time on your hands! I'm retired but certainly do not have time to write (or even read) your diatribes.

I'd never ask you to write a diatribe, Brian.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

I've read those reliability surveys. They're rubbish and don't reflect the real-world experiences of anyone I've ever met. They ALSO fail to take into account that you can have the most reliable vehicle in the world but if it's a misery to own and drive, what good is that?

They're statistically valid surveys.

That said, one should never base one's buying decisions entirely on such surveys.

Still, they're helpful.

I agree they're not 100% accurate measurements.

For example, Suzuki is ranked near the bottom.

Yet, my own experience -- and the experience of my relatives -- has been extremely positive with Suzuki.

One of my brothers owned one that lasted for well over 200,000 miles with extremely low maintenance costs.

He bought a second Suzuki two years ago and has enjoyed trouble-free driving with that model as well.

I've owned a Suzuki for the past few years and the maintenance costs have been ridiculously low; I've never had a mechanical problem with my Suzuki.

With my Volkswagen GTI and my Pontiac Fiero, I had mechanical problems on a weekly basis.

Still, the J.D. Powers surveys do give me confidence in the Toyotas -- in addition to my experience with those cars.

I'd even take a look at the Buick and the Mercury models as they were the only American lines that made it into the top of the list.

When I worked for the City of Boise, I drove a Toyota Prius.

The City of Boise began to purchase Prius models instead of heavy, gas-guzzling trucks.

The Prius cars are amazing.

When you pull out of the parking garage, the car makes no noise.

It's startling, at first.

Then when you gain speed, the gasoline engine starts.

It's all automatic.

We tracked our mileage and the Prius models delivered well above 40 mpg.

I believe the very people who argue that the marketplace killed the electric car still don't seem to understand that it will, in fact, be the marketplace that will allow the electric car to make a huge comeback -- in spite of sluggish and/or complacent management structures in contemporary big business.

In other words, the very people who claim to believe in the free enterprise system often seem to have no real faith in it.

I do.

It will be the free enterprise system that will lead to newer, better electric cars.

The film "Who Killed the Electric Car" will help generate interest in the subject, but it will be the free enterprise system that will make it a reality, especially as the research and development on battery technology advances.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05906.pdf

1. I share your concern about raptors and bats.
2. Never rely on Wikipedia for definitive information.
3. Your GAO PDF (above) is excellent.

However, if you read the FULL text of the GAO study that you cited, you will find -- on page 10 -- the following information:

"Specifically, studies showing raptor mortality in California and bat mortality in Appalachia have elicited concerns from scientists, environmental groups, and regulators because of the large number of kills in these areas and the potential cumulative impact on some species."

"Thus far, documented bird and bat mortality from wind power in other parts of the country has not occurred in numbers high enough to raise concerns."

"However, gaps in the literature make it difficult to develop definitive conclusions about the impacts of wind power on birds and other wildlife."

"Notably, only a few studies have been conducted on strategies to address the potential risks wind power facilities pose to wildlife."

"Our review of the literature and discussions with experts revealed that, thus far, concerns over direct impacts to wildlife from wind power facilities have been concentrated in two geographic areas -- Northern California and Appalachia."

"While bird and bat kills have been documented in many locations, biologists are primarily concerned about mortality in these two regions."

I agree that the issue is one that must be weighed against the the costs of our current oil dependence.

Even President Bush conceded recently that "Americans are addicted to oil"...

http://tinyurl.com/zous7

Quotation:

“America is addicted to oil, which is often imported from unstable parts of the world,” Bush said as he sought to drive the election-year agenda in his annual State of the Union address.

...and I agree with him on that point.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

I'd like to state that I have nothing personal against electric cars or wind power. My problem is that some (many) people are so overzealous about the environment, that while dressing some issues that they see as a problem, they create bigger, worse ones due to lack of proper investigation and planning.
Want to produce an electric car? Great, I'm all for it, but only after you have a FULL study about:
1. Manufacturing costs
2. Recycling
3. Pollution produced during manufacturing and recycling, not many people know how polluting a clean room is.
4. Amount of raw materials consumed by your project during production, maintenence and recycling, also in comparison with the other alternatives.
Example: Is your new car heavier than the alternative? What effect will it have on the tires etc? Will I need special ones? Will I need to replace them more often etc. etc. etc.

Rushing to do something because its 'cool' can be disastrous. Best example is those 'enviromentalists' that torched brand new SUVs, creating more pollution than those cars would create in a lifetime of horrid maintenence.

These are all good points.

However, I worked for the City of Boise Public Works Department marketing for several years.

Our primary job -- as a department -- was to protect the environment of the City of Boise.

1. We specialized in building and operating huge wastewater treatment facilities.
2. We specialized in curbside recycling.
3. We specialized in household hazardous waste collection and recycling.

But we also worked directly with industry.

Here in Boise, we have the headquarters of one of the largest chip producers on planet Earth... Micron Technology... which is a giant employer:

http://tinyurl.com/g2ra7

Our relationship with Micron was an ongoing relationship.

Our specialists worked directly with Micron to develop on-site treatment facilities.

These facilities essentially clean Micron's waste to specifications that we constantly measure to make certain that our municipal treatment plant is not overwhelmed.

Virtually all household products are hazardous to the environment in some way.

You name it.

1. oil
2. paint
3. paint thinner
4. cleaning solutions
5. PDAs
6. monitors

...and so on.

Here, we have established a network of collection sites and we publicized those through various media, including local TV advertising and the Web:

http://tinyurl.com/lmumc

If electric cars continue to gain traction in the marketplace, then I am certain that municipal programs such as those of the City of Boise will make it easy to recycle the batteries.

And I would be willing to bet that the nation will realize a net savings over what we're spending now on unsustainable sources of energy.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[TransformX]

Well, if that system works as well as you wrote and you manage to convert even a single city at a time, more power to you.

[Jerry Jones]

POPULAR MECHANICS recently *ran the numbers comparing all types of alternative fuel vehicles.

*LINK: http://tinyurl.com/hzhov

"A strong appeal of the electric car--and of a hybrid when it's running on electricity--is that it produces no tailpipe emissions. Even when emissions created by power plants are factored in, electric vehicles emit less than 10 percent of the pollution of an internal-combustion car."

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

POPULAR MECHANICS CONCLUSION:

"Before we see our national fleet running on hydrogen, we believe that many households might have an electric or plug-in hybrid for short trips, an E85/electric hybrid sedan, SUV or minivan to squire the whole team, and a diesel pickup fueled by B30 or B50 to haul most anything else."

LINK: http://tinyurl.com/gao7z

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

You're very good at finding studies that show what you want them to show, and very bad at providing any sense of realism. Stop with the diatribes and join the really real world.

Thanks.

I would suggest you read the studies and try to become more informed.

POPULAR MECHANICS recently crunched the numbers on alternative fuels and electric cars did very well:

PDF CHART: http://tinyurl.com/gfkfg

According to Popular Mechanics:

"Vehicles that operate only on electricity require no warmup, run almost silently and have excellent performance up to the limit of their range."

"Also, electric cars are cheap to "refuel."

"At the average price of 10 cents per kwh, it costs around 2 cents per mile."

"Electric cars can be recharged at night, when generating plants are under-utilized."

"Vehicles that run on electricity only part of the time and on internal-combustion power at other times--hybrids--have even greater promise."

"As hybrids gain in popularity, there is a growing interest in plug-in hybrids that allow owners to fully recharge the vehicle's batteries overnight."

"A strong appeal of the electric car--and of a hybrid when it's running on electricity--is that it produces no tailpipe emissions."

"Even when emissions created by power plants are factored in, electric vehicles emit less than 10 percent of the pollution of an internal-combustion car."

LINK: http://tinyurl.com/hzhov

Did you know you could power your own home using WIND and SOLAR?

If you doubt that, then read this POPULAR MECHANICS article:

http://tinyurl.com/jdozy

It's excellent. It's titled "OFF THE GRID."

Cheers.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net