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  • Carbon Dioxide and global warming again



    The real deal?
    Against the grain: Some scientists deny global warming exists
    Lawrence Solomon, National Post
    Published: Friday, February 02, 2007

    Astrophysicist Nir Shariv, one of Israel's top young scientists, describes the logic that led him -- and most everyone else -- to conclude that SUVs, coal plants and other things man-made cause global warming.

    Step One Scientists for decades have postulated that increases in carbon dioxide and other gases could lead to a greenhouse effect.

    Step Two As if on cue, the temperature rose over the course of the 20th century while greenhouse gases proliferated due to human activities.

    Step Three
    No other mechanism explains the warming. Without another candidate, greenhouses gases necessarily became the cause.

    Dr. Shariv, a prolific researcher who has made a name for himself assessing the movements of two-billion-year-old meteorites, no longer accepts this logic, or subscribes to these views. He has recanted: "Like many others, I was personally sure that CO2 is the bad culprit in the story of global warming. But after carefully digging into the evidence, I realized that things are far more complicated than the story sold to us by many climate scientists or the stories regurgitated by the media.

    "In fact, there is much more than meets the eye."

    Dr. Shariv's digging led him to the surprising discovery that there is no concrete evidence -- only speculation -- that man-made greenhouse gases cause global warming. Even research from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change-- the United Nations agency that heads the worldwide effort to combat global warming -- is bereft of anything here inspiring confidence. In fact, according to the IPCC's own findings, man's role is so uncertain that there is a strong possibility that we have been cooling, not warming, the Earth. Unfortunately, our tools are too crude to reveal what man's effect has been in the past, let alone predict how much warming or cooling we might cause in the future.

    All we have on which to pin the blame on greenhouse gases, says Dr. Shaviv, is "incriminating circumstantial evidence," which explains why climate scientists speak in terms of finding "evidence of fingerprints." Circumstantial evidence might be a fine basis on which to justify reducing greenhouse gases, he adds, "without other 'suspects.' " However, Dr. Shaviv not only believes there are credible "other suspects," he believes that at least one provides a superior explanation for the 20th century's warming.

    "Solar activity can explain a large part of the 20th-century global warming," he states, particularly because of the evidence that has been accumulating over the past decade of the strong relationship that cosmic- ray flux has on our atmosphere. So much evidence has by now been amassed, in fact, that "it is unlikely that [the solar climate link] does not exist."

    The sun's strong role indicates that greenhouse gases can't have much of an influence on the climate -- that C02 et al. don't dominate through some kind of leveraging effect that makes them especially potent drivers of climate change. The upshot of the Earth not being unduly sensitive to greenhouse gases is that neither increases nor cutbacks in future C02 emissions will matter much in terms of the climate.

    Even doubling the amount of CO2 by 2100, for example, "will not dramatically increase the global temperature," Dr. Shaviv states. Put another way: "Even if we halved the CO2 output, and the CO2 increase by 2100 would be, say, a 50% increase relative to today instead of a doubled amount, the expected reduction in the rise of global temperature would be less than 0.5C. This is not significant."

    The evidence from astrophysicists and cosmologists in laboratories around the world, on the other hand, could well be significant. In his study of meteorites, published in the prestigious journal, Physical Review Letters, Dr. Shaviv found that the meteorites that Earth collected during its passage through the arms of the Milky Way sustained up to 10% more cosmic ray damage than others. That kind of cosmic ray variation, Dr. Shaviv believes, could alter global temperatures by as much as 15% --sufficient to turn the ice ages on or off and evidence of the extent to which cosmic forces influence Earth's climate.

    In another study, directly relevant to today's climate controversy, Dr. Shaviv reconstructed the temperature on Earth over the past 550 million years to find that cosmic ray flux variations explain more than two-thirds of Earth's temperature variance, making it the most dominant climate driver over geological time scales. The study also found that an upper limit can be placed on the relative role of CO2 as a climate driver, meaning that a large fraction of the global warming witnessed over the past century could not be due to CO2 -- instead it is attributable to the increased solar activity.

    CO2 does play a role in climate, Dr. Shaviv believes, but a secondary role, one too small to preoccupy policymakers. Yet Dr. Shaviv also believes fossil fuels should be controlled, not because of their adverse affects on climate but to curb pollution.

    "I am therefore in favour of developing cheap alternatives such as solar power, wind, and of course fusion reactors (converting Deuterium into Helium), which we should have in a few decades, but this is an altogether different issue." His conclusion: "I am quite sure Kyoto is not the right way to go."

    Lawrence Solomon@nextcity.com
    "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

  • #2
    Incoming 10 paragraph reply
    Dr. Mordrid
    ----------------------------
    An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

    I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

    Comment


    • #3
      You have already posted on Dr Shariv's haverings. Why repeat the same thing?

      Obviously Dr Shariv knows a lot more science than Arrhenius. It was he who calculated the importance of CO2 as a greenhouse gas, about 120 years ago!!! What these guys have never studied is the fact that the spectral absorption of CO2 just happens to neatly hit the black-body equivalent radiative spectrum of the earth, whereas the absorbtive spectrum of water vapour is a narrow band well to the lower wavelengths of the radiative spectrum.

      I agree with his statement
      Yet Dr. Shaviv also believes fossil fuels should be controlled, not because of their adverse affects on climate but to curb pollution.

      "I am therefore in favour of developing cheap alternatives such as solar power, wind, and of course fusion reactors (converting Deuterium into Helium), which we should have in a few decades, but this is an altogether different issue."
      except that I would change "not because" to "because" and I would add "also" after "climate but". However, until these methods are developed, we have nuclear fission as a stopgap. Fusion is still vapourware, in spite of the ITER project (perhaps I should say plasmaware! )
      Brian (the devil incarnate)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Doc
        Incoming 10 paragraph reply
        Is there something wrong with a 10 paragraph reply to a 13 paragraph posting?
        Chuck
        秋音的爸爸

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Brian Ellis View Post
          You have already posted on Dr Shariv's haverings. Why repeat the same thing?

          Obviously Dr Shariv knows a lot more science than Arrhenius. It was he who calculated the importance of CO2 as a greenhouse gas, about 120 years ago!!! What these guys have never studied is the fact that the spectral absorption of CO2 just happens to neatly hit the black-body equivalent radiative spectrum of the earth, whereas the absorbtive spectrum of water vapour is a narrow band well to the lower wavelengths of the radiative spectrum.

          I agree with his statement

          except that I would change "not because" to "because" and I would add "also" after "climate but". However, until these methods are developed, we have nuclear fission as a stopgap. Fusion is still vapourware, in spite of the ITER project (perhaps I should say plasmaware! )
          And at the same time, greenspin technocrats keep ignoring the shifts in the solar radiation power levels or historical events (historical meaning more than mere 100 years ago, all the way to archeological evidence).
          "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by TransformX View Post
            And at the same time, greenspin technocrats keep ignoring the shifts in the solar radiation power levels or historical events (historical meaning more than mere 100 years ago, all the way to archeological evidence).
            That is not true. In fact, it is a lie. The IPCC clearly stated in their reports the effects of solar radiation changes. In receny years, the radiative forcing from the sun has decreased, so how do you explain that?

            BBC, News, BBC News, news online, world, uk, international, foreign, british, online, service


            Latest research, as reported in popular media (I would need something more solid for a definitive answer), would seem to indicate that the influence of the sun and cosmic particles may be less than thought.
            Brian (the devil incarnate)

            Comment


            • #7
              When you know what caused this:
              Explore National Geographic. A world leader in geography, cartography and exploration.



              You can try and guess what causes global warming here. Meanwhile, what most technocrats here do, is search for their lost nickel under the streetlight. Just like you love preaching that weather and climate are different. Pollution and global warming are even further apart.
              "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

              Comment


              • #8
                You make me laugh! What do YOU know about the atmospheric science of Mars, let alone the much more complex one of our planet? In fact, what do you know about science? Quoting from the Heartland Institute is as bad as quoting from Al Gore: neither have a clue about what is going on and both are politically motivated. And, of course, climate change and increased pollution are derived from the same cause: burning fossil fuels; your favourite cranky scientist was perfectly right there. Did you know that the Indian Ministry of the Environment estimates 5,000,000 deaths/year from fossil fuel combustion-related causes? This largely exceeds the WHO figures (they quote a global 3M from energy-pollution sources), but if you have been to New Delhi, you can well understand it!

                TX, some advice: if you want to talk politics Ã* la Heartland Institute, post it on the politics board. Let's keep this one about science, but knowledgeably, not just quoting media and other doubtful sources.
                Brian (the devil incarnate)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Yet you ignore the warming of mars...
                  Also, you preach everyone that weather isn't climate, but won't accept that pollution isn't global warming...
                  There's science, there's educated guesses, and there's pseudo science, more akin to alchemy and the occult.

                  Edit:

                  Originally posted by Brian Ellis View Post
                  What do YOU know about the atmospheric science of Mars,
                  I'll tell you what I know. I know that there are no humans, SUVs, energy plants, forest fires, deforestation or anything of that kind there.
                  "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TransformX View Post
                    Yet you ignore the warming of mars...
                    Also, you preach everyone that weather isn't climate, but won't accept that pollution isn't global warming...
                    There's science, there's educated guesses, and there's pseudo science, more akin to alchemy and the occult.

                    Edit:



                    I'll tell you what I know. I know that there are no humans, SUVs, energy plants, forest fires, deforestation or anything of that kind there.
                    OK, I'm all ears, do please tell me why the polar ice cap of Mars is diminishing when the radiative forcing from the sun is decreasing? We would all like to know.
                    Brian (the devil incarnate)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I don't pretend to know. I don't know, but I can claim with the same accuracy as your claims, that THIS is the same reason our planet is warming up. Why? Because nothing greenspinners say is anything but speculations.
                      Now go back to your fiddling with voodoo dolls.
                      "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I've been able to find the science behind the media quote I presented earlier. It can be found here.

                        5. Conclusions
                        There are many interesting palaeoclimate studies that suggest that solar variability had an influence on pre-industrial climate. There are also some detection–attribution studies using global climate models that suggest there was a detectable influence of solar variability in the first half of the twentieth century and that the solar radiative forcing variations were amplified by some mechanism that is, as yet, unknown. However, these findings are not relevant to any debates about modern climate change. Our results show that the observed rapid rise in global mean temperatures seen after 1985 cannot be ascribed to solar variability, whichever of the mechanisms is invoked and no matter how much the solar variation is amplified.

                        The authors are grateful to the World Data Centre system and the many scientists who contribute data to it and to the Omni and GISS teams of NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center.
                        (Sorry for the Dr M-style emphasis!)

                        Please read this paper carefully before responding.
                        Brian (the devil incarnate)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Brian Ellis View Post
                          ...

                          Please read this paper carefully before responding.
                          Good luck Brian.
                          Nowadays people just want to know things without having to learn anything.
                          It's less work that way.
                          Chuck
                          秋音的爸爸

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            All this paper is saying is: Up till 1985, solar radiation coupled with an unknown factor might have been responsible for global temperature changes. Starting 1985, it's meaningless.
                            Wow, great..
                            So they've studied a system that introduces the planet with vast amount of energy in the last few billion years for less than a hundred years and draw concrete conclusions. Ofcourse they didn't bother talking to archeologists or the like, oh no, they have their precise measuring devices and some unknown factor which is all they need. Science at it's very best.
                            Now, how exactly does any of that prove that CO2 is responsible for global warming and not some unknown factor(s) again?
                            "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Please read this paper carefully before responding.
                              You have not done so.
                              Brian (the devil incarnate)

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