Digital 8 vs. Digital

[Riddek]

Hi, I was at a convention this weekend and was chatting with a camera man about digital video cameras. He advised me that Sony digital 8 cameras are far superior to regular digital cameras in picture resolution and audio quality. He also said that digital 8 cassettes were half the cost of digital tapes.

I was under the impression that digital 8 cameras were Hi8 cameras that capture in analog format and convert the video to digital for exporting. Could someone clarify this for me? Which one captures higher quality video?

[Dr Mordrid]

While he's right about 8mm/Hi8 cassettes being cheaper, that is about the only thing he scored on. The 8mm/Hi8 cassettes are cheaper because they've been in production long enough to pay for the original product capitalization.

Quality is another issue, and this is where this guy is FOS. You figure it out

There have been articles on this written all over the video press and the consensus is that DV cams deliver 480 to 500+ lines of resolution while D8 delivers 300 to 350 lines of resolution. The reasons are simple;

cheaper optics
cheaper CCD's (mostly Hi8 style devices)
less advanced RGB filtering

Basically D8 cams are built for the consumer market. DV cams are still prosumer oriented. What's nice is that the prices of DV cams are dropping to the point where you can get one for a much smaller premium (if any) over a D8 cam.

It's like the difference between a Winchester 700 30-06 and a Weatherby MarkV .300 Magnum. Both do the job, both are 30 caliber, but one does it a whole lot better

Dr. Mordrid



[This message has been edited by Dr Mordrid (edited 28 August 2000).]

[Elie]

While DOC explained the differences quite adequately, I will have to add that a normal 8mm/Hi8 tape actual run time is 2 hours, but when used in a Digital 8 camcorder, the run time is only 1 hour long, this means that the tape is running aprox 1.5x faster which makes it MORE susceptible to video drop outs.

In order of quality (poorest to best)

1-8mm
2-VHS-C
3-Hi-8
4-SVHS-C
5-Digital 8
6-MiniDV
7-DVCam
8-DVC Pro
9-Digital S

If anyone has any other opinions please don't hesitate.

Regards,
Elie


[This message has been edited by Elie (edited 30 August 2000).]

[Pooh]

I have a DC30+ and a Digital8 which I upgraded from a Hi8. I also use a SVHS Deck for output and masters.

I can tell you that the D8 is plenty good enough for the majority of us punters.

Now I'm sure the Doc can rattle off a huge list of techie reasons why D8 is inferior but in real life usage I find it of sufficiently high quality to be perfectably adequate for my needs.

I have done some small commissions ( Sub £1K ) using my set-up and I find that 99.99% of the punters are more concerned with the editing skill and final output of what is put together than with the technicalities of the format of how it is filmed / captured.

Don't forget that most of the home punters are still running on crappy VHS based machines when they want to view your super duper outputs. Lowest common denominator.

Now I'm sure over the next year or so when we see the introduction of sensibly priced digital recording/playback devices in the home arena then the argument I have submitted will be in need of review. Up to that point I and my punters are quite happy with the D8 based output and the cheap tapes that the trusty Sony uses.

Dons the flackproof jacket and awaits comments


Regards

Pooh

[This message has been edited by Pooh (edited 28 August 2000).]

[paulw]

Well put Pooh.

When I go digital in the next few years the desider as to whether I go DV or D8 will depend if my 1 year old Hi8 is still going. If it is and is in good working condidtion I will go DV. If it dies then I will go D8 so that I can play back all my 8mm tapes. The points that Doc M makes are quite valid.

[dchip]

I spent quite some time shopping for a video camera and compared D8 to DV, extensively. I even purchased and later returned one D8 which I think was a Sony 310. It took good pictures and I was fairly impressed with what I saw on playback on my TV, however, I know my TV to be capable of 525 horizontal lines (a gently-worn 3+ year old 27" Panasonic GAOO Super-Flat) so the more I looked at the taped video from the Sony 310 the less satisfied I became.

Months later, I purchased my Canon Elura Mini-DV (the keeper!) and now I am seeing fantastic video. Beautiful, crisp, lifelike video that reminds me that it was truly worth it to spend a bit more for Mini DV.

I use Panasonic DV tapes. Sure, DV tapes cost more than the bigger tapes, but, what price great quality?

I am not saying D8 systems don't make good video, but I am saying a Mini-DV is much better. It took a lot of shopping, debating forum-reading and seeing-for-myself, but, for me, Mini-DV beats D8.

[Elie]

Speaking of camcorders... Do any of you have any experience with the old model Canon Optura one chip dv camera???

My friend is asking and I would like some feedback negative to positive.

Thanks in advance,
Elie

[dizzynoodle]

taking this discussion a step further, what do u guys say abou the diference in quality one would get out of a normal 1CCD miniDV cam VS a 3CCD cam like Canon XM1 or the 1000/2000 from Sony. is there a major differece in quality to counterbalance the premium one has to pay ?

[Grigory]

Hi,
my TV to be capable of 525 horizontal lines ...

? ALL NTSC TV's are capable of 525 lines, but show on screen ~ 440 of them.

PAL shows 576 - 10% lines.

If you were speaking about 525 horizontal lines of resolution, this is above the S-video connection and TV circuitry specifications, or, at least require very fine, 720+ phophor stripes on full screen width and very good video amplifier inside your TV.

CCD. For single CCD camcorders, all DV and D8 models have the same actual resolution. So, the remark about "Hi8 resolution with DV recording format" are incorrect - the resolution itself is about the same.

It is useless to compare 1 CCD with 3CCD devices - 3CCD camcorders are definitely better, ... if you have appropriate TV to see the difference.

Optics. Well, maybe the lense quality is important and maybe Canon makes lenses better. However, this applies to "ideal" shooting conditions, while you have enough light and perfect manual focusing, which is often not the case for home video.
For typical non-professional use conditions, both D8 and miniDV camcorders are equivalent.

I also expect that all DV format camcorders use same or very similar DV electronics inside, so this should not make difference in image quality.

The price of tape and its availability everywhere, and 100% reliability of regular 8 mm tapes (I used 17 tapes for 1.5 years) is a big advantage for me in the case of D8.

Pal D8 models have better CCD sensors and provide better resolution. Also, all D8 models have at least x5 color resolution compared with Hi8 or VHS, no noise. The color resolution goes far above what we can get on most TV screen too.

The big disadvantage of my D8 camcorder is poor white balancing for indoor shooting. This may describe the visual quality difference of D8 and some better designed mini-DV camcorders.

Finally I got:
1. Reliable operation for 18 months, on regular 8mm tapes (BASF, TDK)
2. Far superior image quality in comparison with any analog camcorder I could see
3. More than enough quality for later VHS recordings and MPEG2 movies for viewing on regular 25' Sony TV from H+ mpeg2 decoder or from VHS
4. Saved ~400 $ for original cost (at the time of purchase) and tapes
5. Reliable operation with DV Raptor card
6. Ability to use camcorder as analog video capture device for my old VHS-C tapes, instead of not working MJPEG solutions
7. 65 minutes recording time per tape instead of 46 minutes for my old VHS-C PAL camcorder.
8. 7 hours recording time for reasonably heavy and bulky battery.

Conclusion - it is your choice what to buy, but D8 camcorders are really good for the quality/cost ratio they have. For the quality they are (currently) at the bottom end of DV format camcorders, but this is only because of Sony marketing policy, but not because of the idea itself.

Some years later I'll definitely buy D8 if Sony make better model, instead of miniDV, and continue use the existing camcorder as storage device. BTW, 3CCD DV camcorder AND D8 tape storage device (D8 camcorder) are also looking as good combination.

Grigory

[wkulecz]

I view D8 as a bridge product. If you've nothing but VHS and SVHS then D8 offers little beyond cheaper tapes. OTOH if you have analog 8 and/or Hi8 tapes, D8 makes a whole lot of sense as you put in your analog tape, press play and DV comes out the firewire. Quality is better than can be had with the Marvel or other analog capture (but the differnece is not worth argueing about!).

The DV camcorders are generally more feature rich than the D8 models at similar price points.

Unless your audience will somehow be watching othr than VHS "lens quality" issues will end up moot.

I have a bottom of the line Sony TR7000 D8 and 720x480 DV fireware captures played back on the computer monitor compares favorably in terms of sharpness, resolution, and general inage quality to comercial DVDs played back on the same monitor with PowerDVD. So until my audience has better than NTSC displays and VHS distribution, it hardly seems worthwile to invest a lot to be able to produce "better".

As to Doc's 30 cal rifle analogy, some times, to put meat on the table, 30-06 and 300 magnum are too much gun -- a cheapo 30-30 does the trick!

--wally.

[Sillyname]

You guys are so country...

------------------
Deep is not the root word of depression.

[Dr Mordrid]

A 30-30 will put deer meat on the table, but if a bear or cougar decides to make YOU the main dish I'll take that Weatherby every time ;-))

We have 'em both in Michigan....

Dr. Mordrid

[This_Idiot]

Hey, an argument - I'm amazed that Patrick hasn't weighed in yet, but there's time yet. Good to see Grigory back, I send my personal welcome !

Regarding 1CCD Vs 3CCD, come on ! It's like trying to compare 8track audio against CD. On Poohs comments about DC30+ and D8, one has to assume that he is using the composite or S-Video inputs to the DC30 to capture, which won't give comparable results to a DV capture device.

But mainly, while D8 was a great marketing ploy, DV has now dropped sufficiently in price to be directly competing (at least here in the UK). The best advice (as always) is to go into your local store and ask for direct comparisons, then judge for yourself.

[dizzynoodle]

hey this_idiot,

my query is over your comment about the 3ccd cams being a zillion times better than the 1 ccd cams.. after shooting & editing will sending to vhs show the difference {2} will sending to Betacam SP show the difference [for broadcast].

Also, can you help in terms of evaluating the Sony Trv20 [a 3ccd cam] how does it stand against the Sony PC100 and the new PC5 ? - in terms of quality and features.

thanx a mil

[This_Idiot]

Hiya Dizzynoodle,

No, I wouldn't claim a zillion times better for DV than other codecs. Certainly if you are returning footage to VHS then this is your limiting factor. Obviously, the better quality that you can maintain in the capture and editing process, the better the eventual result. I have no experience at Betacam, and I'm not into the LPI theorising debate (the only Maths I allow myself these days is the number of posts that I can read and hopefully respond to in an evening).

You might like to look at some of Docs treatise regarding the relative quality of DV vs other codecs (to do with YUY capture). However, within the DV arena, it still remains factual that 3CCDs is better than 1, and that DV8 hasn't retained a meaningful price differential against DV cams here in the UK