"Blu-ray Disc" vs. "HD DVD": Neither Is Winning

[Jerry Jones]

By the way, I just checked my two standard DVD players and their remotes don't have volume controls. The volume control is on the TV. So non sequitur, Mark.



Also, I would point out that most high definition TVs 42" and smaller that have been sold to date can't even display 1080i because their native pixel resolution is only sufficient to display 720p. So APPLE's 1280 x 720/24p movie resolution is flawlessly logical.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

If APPLE TV were not a great idea, then why are so many companies now selling products that do exactly the same thing?

1. SanDisk TakeTV:

http://www.take.tv/

2. ARCHOS TV+:

http://www.archos.com/products/gen_5/archos_tv/index.html?country=global&lang=en

3. TViX HD M-5100SH:

http://www.tvix.co.kr/Eng/products/5100sh.aspx

4. TViX HD M-4000PA/M-4000SA

http://www.tvix.co.kr/Eng/products/HDM4000.aspx

5. TViX HD M-4100SH:

http://www.tvix.co.kr/Eng/products/4100sh.aspx

6. D-Link DSM-520:

http://www.dlink.com/products/?sec=1&pid=438

7. D-Link DSM-510:

http://www.dlink.com/products/?sec=1&pid=542

8. D-Link DSM-750:

http://www.dlink.com/products/?sec=1&pid=547

The field just keeps growing!



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

Nice FLASH presentation about SanDisk's new TakeTV device:

http://www.sandisk.com/Assets/Flash/TakeTV/SNDK_TAKETV5.html?TB_iframe=true&height=420&width=500

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Hulk]

Jerry,

I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion.

That 55 minute encoding time may be funny nonsense to you but it is the truth as tested. And the point is that the Apple TV only accepts 720p at 24fps at 5Mbps, hardly hi-def in terms of data rate coupled with the fact that you MUST transcode (and slowely) any content NOT using Apples own version of H.264.

You'll have quite some giggling time while you're transcoding all of your non-Apple video!

As for the resolution issue.

First, there are very few 720p camcorders out there and they DO go 30fps. No go for Apple TV.

Second, there are tons of anamorphic 1080i HD cams out there. That's 1440x1080 for static images, slightly less during moving due to interlacing. 1080 lines is MUCH more than 540. The Apple TV will have you throw a field AWAY! That's crazy. I'm no fan of interlaced video but jeez I'm not going to throw away a field.

Finally there every commercial production video, of course including movies, will be 1080i or p. And that's a no-go for the Apple TV.

Yes I'm a videophile. But people are still interested in 720/30p, 1080/60i, and 1080/30p and the Apple TV WON'T PLAY BACK ANY OF THEM!!!

Come on Jerry this thing has some development needed before it's ready for prime time.

The lack of accepting other than Apple H.264 video formats and limited range of resolutions and temporal rates it will accept severly limit this device.

Did you know that it's CPU is a 1GHz Dothan? That's an old Pentium M. And that is the reason for the limited video decoding. Once they upgrade that and let it playback other formats they'll at least have something decent.

But I bet they won't. They'll keep you locked into i-Tunes.

Like I said no thanks and I think I've provided some pretty solid reasoning. It's not like it just won't do 1080/60p or something. This thing won't play back 90% of the HD spec!

[Jerry Jones]

In summary, "HD DVD" and "Blu-ray Disc" are as dead as disco.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

Mark,

Really, I'm having a lot of fun with this topic. Truly.

I respect your opinion/choice, but you do remind me of the Laserdisc fans who bought all of those Laserdiscs that were never adopted by the masses.

Laserdiscs are still cool.

I mean the word "Laserdisc" sounds kind of cool like... uh... "Blu-ray."

Laserdisc... Blu-ray... Blu-ray... Laserdisc... ZZZZZZZZZZTTTTTTTTTT

Now what we need is a new optical disc format.

The KING OF THEM ALL.

How about PhaserDisc?

That sounds like a ray gun, too.

My wallet's already open.



On a more serious note...

http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=LHQMH3JRBQ5N0QSNDLSCKHA?articleID=202600401

They must be doing something right in Cupertino.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Mehen]

I think there's holograph technology. Stores data in a holograph between two layers on a disk.

[Jerry Jones]

Optware was expected to release a 200 GB disc in early June 2006, and Maxell in September 2006 with a capacity of 300 GB and transfer rate of 20 MB/s.

There's only one problem...

Since the announcement, there have been no further news or products on market.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Hulk]

Jerry,

As an act of goodwill you really should contact the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray backers and tell them to stop wasting their money.

And to all of the people who are currently enjoying their HD optical discs and players you need to send a mass e-mail to tell them to start un-enjoying and that they are stupid and foolish to spend so much money on the players. Of course the rentals are as cheap as DVD's.

Tell them to get an Apple TV and start really enjoying their movies at 1/4 the resolution of what they're watching now!

As Brian said. The market will decide this so there's no point in beating a dead horse.

[Brian Ellis]

In summary, "HD DVD" and "Blu-ray Disc" are as dead as disco.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

Male bovine excrement! When 50% of the world's viewers can download a 30 Gb HD movie (and that's already far too compressed to be artefact-free) in 5 minutes (or even in real time for streaming viewing), then I'll start going along with you. Until then, this is all we have and I'm certainly not making any investment until the war is won (if then!).

I say 30 Gb because that appears to be the minimum for an HD optical disc. We have to compare apples with apples. If you try to compare apples with Apple, then the extra compression must get in the way.

Let me tell you a little secret: a few months ago, my trusty old 28" CRT rendered its soul back to Sanyo and I replaced it with a top-of-the-range JVC 32" LCD which goes up to 1080p. I have no HD source material, so cannot judge its performance at true HD. What has really amazed me is the quality of its upping from 576i from either a digital satellite broadcast or a DVD (even a homegrown one). I've even gone right up to the screen with a magnifying glass to look at the individual triads (0.32 mm) and cannot see any staircasing or other artefacts. Quite honestly, as an electronics engineer who did his dissertation on colour TV in 1951, I cannot imagine how this is done. What it does mean is that 576i looks like HD and appears to be as good as 720p, at least, because there are no interlacing artefacts, to boot, even on fast-moving subjects.

So, please tell me why I should even need HD?

[Jerry Jones]

So, please tell me why I should even need HD?

You don't.

Thanks for making my point.

Let's see...

1. HD DVD
2. Blu-ray Disc
3. Laserdisc
4. MiniDiscs
5. Betamax
6. Cassette Tapes (compact cassette)
7. 8-track Cartridges (stereo 8)
8. VHS

...I detect a pattern.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[wkulecz]

They're much better off fumbling to put a disc in a bay and press "play."

Too bad this doesn't work with most standard DVDs because of all the dam "first play" items and stupid menus. My wife has to come get me to stat most DVD movies. Of all the extra features on the disk or extra disks in the box, she's watched exactly zero of it except when she's been lost in the menus!

I don't see any of the computer based stuff remotely close to usable by most folks. My Wife's not stupid, she's got a Master's degree, but she is mechanically disinclined, so much so that even when she uses a scredriver she asks me "righty tighty, lefty loosy?"

My experience comparing standard DVDs in 480p to 1080i HD cable broadcasts on a 65" Toshiba projection set agrees with the don't really need either conclusion of the article Jerry linked. And we're not using an upscalling DVD player, but I will look at the OPPO DV-980H mentioned in the article as it suggest it has component outputs -- our set is before the DVI/HDMI/HDCP was even close to settling.

--wally.

[Hulk]

Jerry,

You're points are getting weaker and weaker.

First you tell me 960x540 resolution is enough for a supposedly modern device. Incredible. But the Apple TV doesn't give you the option to playback video with 720/30p or 1080/60i or 1080/30p content or over 5Mbps data rate video? And it will only playback video encoded to the Apple H.264 codec. You don't see these issues as big show stoppers? Boy when you sign onto the Apple team I guess you forgive any and all Apple sins.

Even a $100 nVidia or ATI video card will decode just about any video at any data rate and output it at up to 1080/30p.

As for HD monitors and TVs. Just two years ago you almost couldn't find a 1080p capable TV. Now as you say almost every one 42" and over it 1080p. That was a pretty fast switch in the paradigm don't you think?

And now finally your last post is really misguided. I want to get this straight. Since a technology will eventually become outdated and replaced by a newer one it's BEST NOT TO BUY THE TECHNOLOGY AT ALL!!!

I can see for gimmick products like the ones you linked above but VHS? I've been using VHS players/recorders for about 20 or more years and I still get great use out of them. My Dad used to have an 8-track in his cars in the '70's and we loved to play those tapes. And jeez all through college the ONLY way I could make a music compilation was with compact cassette!!! You're telling me I'm stupid for buying into those technologies when they served me (and some still serve) so well?

I'm sorry Jerry that's ridiculous.

Don't push what's best for you on everyone else. There are plenty of people out there than can buy and HD-DVD player AND a Blu-Ray player, buy and rent discs, buy a giant 1080p monitor and enjoy. And if in a year or two there's a new technology then fine, they had the means to enjoy that technology.

We can only hope HD-DVD/Blu-Ray have the "legs" of VHS or cassette tapes.

As often happens I don't understand what we're discussing now?

You like the Apple TV. I don't for what I think are some serious limitations in this day and age, it can't do most HD sources, and despite your warnings the world is moving to HD. So I don't like the Apple TV. But after letting people know about those limitations if they still think it will be good for them then that's fine. I have provided my disclosure. I won't continue to tell them what a bad technology it is.

You don't like optical discs. Fine. You think it will be outdated. We get it. But some people have the means to enjoy the technology now and think it will be around for a while. You gave them your side. They have been warned.

By your thinking you were foolish to buy a car in the 1970's. No variable cam technology, to fuel injection (yuck a carburator), no computer control, no catalytic converter so it puked out lots of oxides of nitrogen, etc... Yeah cars today are hundreds of times better. They go faster, they stop faster, they turn faster, they get better gas mileage, they last longer, they need less service, they pollute less.... but those old cars are all that was available so we used them to get around!

Thank you and good night.

[Hulk]

Too bad this doesn't work with most standard DVDs because of all the dam "first play" items and stupid menus. My wife has to come get me to stat most DVD movies. Of all the extra features on the disk or extra disks in the box, she's watched exactly zero of it except when she's been lost in the menus!

I don't see any of the computer based stuff remotely close to usable by most folks. My Wife's not stupid, she's got a Master's degree, but she is mechanically disinclined, so much so that even when she uses a scredriver she asks me "righty tighty, lefty loosy?"

My experience comparing standard DVDs in 480p to 1080i HD cable broadcasts on a 65" Toshiba projection set agrees with the don't really need either conclusion of the article Jerry linked. And we're not using an upscalling DVD player, but I will look at the OPPO DV-980H mentioned in the article as it suggest it has component outputs -- our set is before the DVI/HDMI/HDCP was even close to settling.

--wally.

Wally,

I hate the damn menus and previews too. What I do is pop the disc in while I'm doing dishes and cleaning up so it can get through all that garbage before I sit down. I don't even turn the TV to the DVD source before I sit down so I don't even have to see/hear it.

Check out a new model 1080P capable LCD or plasma with a HD-DVD or Blu-Ray title. It's not perfect but more and more of the releases are pretty darn amazing.

Unfortunately SD is tapped out, end of the curve, nothing more can be extracted. Eventually HD will be as good pixel-for-pixel as SD. Right now SD is better and more consistent across titles pixel-for-pixel but as HD matures we'll see it catch up. This is why people will not see a big difference in SD vs HD sometimes.

But when HD is done right it's pretty amazing. I haven't made the jump to HD yet but I KNOW in the near future I will be HD.

[Jerry Jones]

you tell me 960x540 resolution is enough for a supposedly modern device.

1. Most consumer high definition camcorders can't truly resolve 1920 x 1080.
2. If you don't like 960 x 540 for home media streaming, you don't have to buy the APPLE TV, you can buy the TViX devices, which support full 1920 x 1080.
3. I'm not pushing anything; I'm just saying the war is over and streaming devices/hard disks have won.

If you want to buy a Laserdisc or Blu-ray device, then buy it.

But both of those technologies are dead as disco.

Bye.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net