"Blu-ray Disc" vs. "HD DVD": Neither Is Winning

[Brian Ellis]

Weaseling again, Jerry: ALL Hollywood-type DVDs are made from 24 fps media PERIOD, FULL STOP!!!

[Jerry Jones]

From Australia... "Seven Reasons To Buy An Apple TV."

http://www.apcmag.com/8032/seven_reasons_why_you_should_buy_an_apple_tv

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

Oh, I forgot... you've bought into the 1080 myth.

No matter.

"HD DVD" and "Blu-ray Disc" are as dead as DISC-o no matter how hard you struggle to deny it, Elie.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

Elie,

Question for you.

If somebody were to offer you -- free of charge -- a brand spanking new $45,000 Panasonic AJ-HDC27H "Varicam" shown here...

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?displayTab=O&storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=94208&catGroupId=14569&surfModel=AJ-HDC27H

...would you turn up your nose and explain you're too good for 1280 x 720 at a true 60 frames per second???

Would you turn this camera down???

...or...

Let's assume you already have a $45,000 "VariCam."

Would you trade it for a sub-$300 Aiptek AHD500 Pro plastic camcorder...

http://www.krunker.com/2008/01/13/aiptek-shows-off-new-hd-digital-camcorders-at-ces-2008/

???

You say resolution is everything, Elie.

So let's put your theory about resolution to the test.

As you know, the sub-$300 Aiptek boasts a 1440 x 1080 progressive frame imager.

That's a claim to higher resolution than is found on the $45,000 "VariCam" by Panasonic.

You seem to be suggesting that you would actually trade a "VariCam" for a plastic Aiptek.

So you think resolution is "everything," eh?

Would it surprise you to learn that many so-called 1080 camcorders feature imagers that can't truly resolve 1920 x 1080 pixels?



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

Hey Jerry, I don't care how many links you show me, the fact that true HD at 1920x1080 is higher in resolution than 720P at 1280x720 square pixels is good enough for me to conclude that 720P is average in terms of quality HD footage. It't the resolutoin that counts, nothing else!

[Elie]

Hey Jerry, I don't care how many links you show me, the fact that true HD at 1920x1080 is higher in resolution than 720P at 1280x720 square pixels is good enough for me to conclude that 720P is average in terms of quality HD footage.

Refresh rates will only have an effet on strobing, so the higher the refresh rate, the less strobing effect is caused when you watch sports for example.

Frame rate, again, it's a choice, all movies are filmed at 24 fps, it's a directors choice, as the film look is prefered format for cinema, but again that has nothing to do with quality.

30fps, has the look of reality, like filming from your camcorder. It has it's place in home movies but no where else.
More and more camera's are supporting 24P and you can see examples of their footage online, even at 720P it is great, imagine at 1920x1080 and add progressive on top...I would say it's spectacular.

Movies are being converted today from 32mm to 1080P which is what you are seeing when you go to your local HMV and buy a Blu-Ray or HD DVD movie.

It't the resolutoin that counts, nothing else!

[Jerry Jones]

Apple TV supports 1280 x 720 @ 24 frames per second (H.264).

Apple TV also supports 960 x 540 @ 30 frames per second (H.264).

I just did another test using AVCHD 1440 x 1080 clips recorded by a high definition Sony HDR-UX1:

http://news.sel.sony.com/en/image_library/images/small/consumer/digital_imaging/camcorders/high_definition/detail?archive=0&asset_id=23553

I used the Apple TV output templates of the "MPEG Streamclip" program:

http://www.squared5.com/

The 24 frames-per-second video at 1280 x 720 exhibited nice sharpness, but motion wasn't quite right... a bit jerky... I presume due to the low frame rate.

I can see why Apple included the 960 x 540 @ 30 frames per second option.

The 960 x 540 option makes motion look much better although it's not quite as sharp.

Still, it's somewhat better than DVD resolution and looks pretty good!

AVCHD camcorder owners will love the Apple TV.

It makes the display of camcorder clips a snap.

I've been able to wirelessly stream both the 1280 x 720 and 960 x 540 H.264 -- without a glitch -- using my 802.11g wireless network... so far.

Will be doing more clip conversions as my tests continue.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

It's true.

However, it's also true for "Blu-ray Disc."

They're both going down because consumers know deep down inside that "HD DVD" and "Blu-ray Disc" are as dead as DISC-o.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[paulw]

R.I.P. HD DVD: Toshiba reportedly ends the war

True?? I hope not.

http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9873848-1.html?tag=nefd.top

[Jerry Jones]

Panasonic announces brand new $6000 AG-HMC150.

http://gizmodo.com/357336/panasonic-ag+hmc150-shoots-on-sdhc

No 1080/60p.

True 1080p acquisition just isn't going to happen anytime soon, which -- of course -- adds credence to the idea that "HD DVD" and "Blu-ray Disc" are as dead as DISC-o.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

REFRESH RATES

http://hometheater.about.com/od/televisionbasics/qt/framevsrefresh.htm

The most common refresh rate for today's Televisions are 60hz for NTSC-based systems and 50hz for PAL-based systems. However, with the introduction of some Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD players that can actually output a 24 frame per second video signal, instead of the traditional 30 frame per second video signal, new refresh rates are being implemented by some television display makers to accommodate these signals in the correct mathematical ratio.

If you have a TV with a 120hz refresh rate that is 1080p/24 compatible (1920 pixels across the screen vs 1080 pixels down the screen, with a 24 frame per second rate). The TV ends up displaying 24 separate frames every second, but repeats each frame according to the refresh rate of the TV. In the case of 120hz each frame would be displayed 5 times within each 24th of a second.

In other words, even with higher refresh rates, there are still only 24 separate frames displayed every second, but they may need to be displayed multiple times, depending on the refresh rate.

To display 24 frames per second on a TV with a 120hz refresh rate, each frame is repeated 5 times every 24th of a second.

To display 24 frames per second on a TV with a 72hz refresh rate, each frame is repeated 3 times every 24th of a second.

To display 30 frames per second on a TV with a 60 hz refresh rate, each frame is repeated 2 times every 30th of a second.

To display 25 frames per second on a TV with a 50 hz refresh rate (PAL Countries), each frame is repeated 2 times every 25th of a second.

To display 25 frames per second on a TV with a 100 hz refresh rate (PAL Countries), each frame is repeated 4 times every 25th of a second.

NOTE: The above explanation is with pure frame rates - if the television is also required to do a 24 frame per second to 30 frame per second or vice versa frame rate conversion, then you also have to deal with 3:2 or 2:3 Pulldown as well, which adds more math to the equation. The 3:2 pulldown function can also be performed by a DVD player, or other source device, before the signal reaches the television.

How TVs Handle 1080p/24

If a TV is 1080p/60 or 1080p/30 - only compatible, it would not accept the 1080p/24 input. Currently, only Blu-ray Discs and HD-DVD discs are the main sources of 1080p/24 material. However, most Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD players convert the outgoing signal to either 1080p/60 or 1080i/30 so that the information can be processed by a TV properly for screen display if it is not compatible with 1080p/24.

Since nobody can provide me with a link to an "HD DVD" or "Blu-ray Disc" title that features material that was acquired, recorded, edited and distributed in a true 1080/60p format, then I think that makes it pretty safe to assume that both "HD DVD" and "Blu-ray Disc" are as dead as DISC-o.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

Brian,

Again... show me one production camera model that acquires -- acquires -- 1080p at 60 frames-per-second *and* records 1080p at 60 frames-per-second.

(You can't, Brian, because it doesn't exist.)

Blu-ray Disc cannot distribute a video format that does not exist.

Blu-ray Discs, currently, feature 1080p material acquired at a crippled 24 frames-per-second.

So... do you want crippled 1080/24p?

Or do you want 720p acquired at a full 60 frames-per-second?

Brian, double-check your Hz refresh rate figure for HDTV displays in the United States.

You need to do that.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

Easier to buy a BR (or HD-DVD) disc.

[Brian Ellis]

And if you had 1080p at 60 fps, the bandwidth required, even compressed, that it would take you two weeks to download a Hollywood epic. Easier to buy a BR (or HD-DVD) disc. You can't have it all ways, can you? Actually, with HDTVs, the framerate is not even material: it DID matter with CRT TVs, but the refresh rate of LCDs is always the same, about 75 fps.

You talk yourself into a corner each time, forcing you to weasel out of it.

[Jerry Jones]

I predict we're going to see a never-ending parade of consumer video devices that will trumpet the 1080p marketing ploy.

JVC, for example.

They're getting ready to sell a new camcorder model... the new Everio GZ-HD6.

JVC is touting this camcorder as a 1080/60p camcorder.

But even that is fake.

http://gizmodo.com/349998/everio-gz+hd6-is-first-consumer-hdd-camera-to-output-1080p-using-chip-tricks-says-jvc

Despite recording in MPEG-2 1080i, the camera uses a conversion engine to fire out a 1080/60p signal through HDMI to your HDTV. This is, according to JVC, a world first.

So that's just conversion being done artificially in the camera.

Don't hold your breath.

Go to the Panasonic Web site and look at Panasonic's top-of-the-line professional cameras:

http://www.panasonic.com/business/provideo/cat_camcorders.asp

Try to find one professional-level, top-of-the-line Panasonic camera that shoots and records 1080p at 60 frames-per-second.

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelList?storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&catGroupId=14569

The top-of-the-line, $48,000 Panasonic AJ-HPX3000's supported formats:

24p, 25p, 30p, 50i, 60i formats

Note the absence of a true 1080/60p format.

Some individuals in this thread have criticized my enthusiasm for high definition video downloads as "unrealistic" and that it won't happen for a "long time" -- yet -- they simultaneously trumpet 1080p at a time in history when there is no true 1080/60p production > distribution > display!

Strikes me as a bit hypocritical.

High definition downloads are happening now; 1080/60p isn't.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

By the way, HDTVs in the U.S. feature 60Hz refresh rates.

If we had true, 60 frames-per-second 1080p, then we would have...

1. Cameras that acquire 1080p at 60 frames-per-second;
2. Recording devices that record 1080p at 60 frames-per-second;
3. Editing systems that edit/output 1080p at 60 frames-per-second;
4. HDTV sets that display at 60Hz refresh rates.

What happens now is that Hollywood...

1. Acquires 1080p at 24 frames-per-second;
2. Much of the material -- due to technical reasons -- winds up being distributed as 1080i at 60 fields (not frames) per second;
3. 1080p TVs then accept the dumbed down 1080 signal and upscale/process the input to display an artificial 1080p.

That is how it is done. And the consumer buys it.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

The crippled frame rate of movies -- 24 frames per second -- originates from the fact movies have been shot on analog media... film.

Other than that peculiar historical fact, there's really no basis for using a crippled 24 frame-per-second rate for *video.*

True 1080p video should be 60 frames-per-second.... just as true 720p should be 60 frames-per-second.

So take your pick.

A 1080p resolution movie with a crippled frame rate?

Or a 720p resolution movie with a full 60 frames per second.

Those are the two choices facing buyers today.

Those high-priced 1080p high definition TVs look pretty good; we've all seen them in stores.

But if you know what true 1080p really involves, then you also know that what you are seeing in the stores is not true 1080p.

Of course, those suffering from pixel-envy don't care; they just like that 1080p marketing phrase. It makes them feel good.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net