"Blu-ray Disc" vs. "HD DVD": Neither Is Winning

[Jerry Jones]

You were the one who claimed just a few posts ago -- and quite incorrectly -- that 720p sports was acquired at 24 frames per second and I had to post articles in response to your claim that refuted what you claimed.

Now you're attempting to claim that I am focusing on 1080i.

That's also incorrect.

What I'm pointing out is that the number "1080" has often been used with a lot of hype.

That's true of both 1080i and 1080p.

The advantage of 720p is that it can display both 24p (film) and 60p (true life).

1080p is relegated to 24 frames per second.

So one must decide if the price premium -- which is substantial for 1080p equipment -- is truly worth it.

The optimal value proposition is 720p in the current environment.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

nobody here has argued that 1080i was good, it is 1080P which is being discussed... your arguments are waaay off... again.

[Tjalfe]

we are discussing movies in this thread.. you are the one dragging TV into it whenever it suits you. I did not say sports was acquired at 24 FPS, MOVIES are typically shot at 24FPS. a 1080 screen displays both 1080P and 720P contents nicely. price premium slowly dissapearing, as most new tv's are 1080P.

[Tjalfe]

a 1080P frame, which you seem to think does not really exist.

compared with a 720P frame

edit: seems PNG images are not displayed
try this instead

http://www.gigafiles.co.uk/files/2671/narnia_l5.png

now display a movie at 60FPS of each resolution, and you can see how BD 1080P looks better than 720P, which looks way better than crippled downloadable HD

[Jerry Jones]

Tjalfe,

Do you really believe a 1080/60p camera exists that is currently being used anywhere in the world?

If so, please provide a link to the specific model.

(You can't.)

You see, that's the problem with your 1080/60p argument.

I'll repeat.

There has been no 1080/60p production, recording, distribution.

Period.

Don't you understand?

The only format that currently offers 60 frames per second acquisition, 60 frames per second recording, 60 frames per second editing, and 60 frames per second distribution is 720p.

Virtually *all* 1080 production is done at what I consider to be a crippled 24 frames-per-second temporal resolution.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

now display a movie at 60FPS of each resolution

[Jerry Jones]

In 2005, just three (3) years ago, Randy Hoffner wrote the following:

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/Tech-Corner/f_randy_hoffner.shtml

There is a 1920 x 1080 studio/field video camera capable of 4:4:4 RGB output at 1080/60p, but no mention is made of any device that might be used to record or edit the images.

And the kicker...

What 1080/60p native signals are available for display on these visually stunning 1080/60p displays? We are told that the PlayStation 3 console will have a 1080p output with games released on Blu-ray discs. We are also told that there are 1080p movie trailers available on the Internet. But wait! These started life as 24fps film, so are they really 60fps? In sum, the resolution capabilities of advanced displays have caught up to the resolution of the 1920 x 1080/60p HD scanning format, but it will be a while before there is much native 1080/60p material available for viewing.

OK. Now it's 2008. Do you know of any 1080/60p production/distribution, Tjalfe???

If so, I challenge you to post a link to prove it.

I'd be interested to read about it.

Meanwhile, until you prove that, I'm going to continue my stance.

My stance is that people who buy 1080p TVs are not watching 60 frames per second 1080 content; but they probably *think* they are.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Tjalfe]

Movies are NOT shot in 720P/60FPS, even if the cameras exist. Taking the 24FPS film, scanning to eiher 720P or 1080P, the heigher resolution will look better.

[Jerry Jones]

Tjalfe,

I've never said otherwise.

Movies are shot at 24 frames per second.

However... and this is the point you miss... sports and other action-oriented programming *is* acquired with cameras that only support up to 1280 x 720 at 60 progressive frames per second!

So why on earth are you trying to convince me to spend an extra wad of cash on a 1080p TV set when I can buy a top-of-the-line 720p set for less money and still get the benefit of the only 60-frames-per-second sports and action-oriented format/programming available??

Spending an extra wad of cash on a 1080p set just to watch 24 frames-per-second 1080 format hollywood stuff doesn't excite me as much as it seems to excite you. I'm into reality (and value).



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

Movies are NOT shot in 720P/60FPS, even if the cameras exist. Taking the 24FPS film, scanning to eiher 720P or 1080P, the heigher resolution will look better.

[Hulk]

nobody here has argued that 1080i was good, it is 1080P which is being discussed... your arguments are waaay off... again.

Exactly.

1080p all the way baby. Or at least until we start seeing 4k coming around the bend.

Strange how Jerry pushes the technology of streaming video with one hand and with the other hand he has the brakes on 1080p!

Jerry you really you need to do some credible research. Please go out an buy "Digital Video and HDTV Algorithms and Interfacts" by Poynton. It is THE bible for HDTV. It's a little technical but I'd think it would clear a lot of things up for you.

[Jerry Jones]

There are also practical disadvantages to renting Blu-ray as opposed to renting Apple TV 720p high definition movies.

1. With Apple TV, you don't have to bother with returning a Blu-ray Disc.

2. With Apple TV, you can view a trailer prior to renting the film as a means of finding out if the movie would truly be worthwhile to watch.

3. With Apple TV, you have the benefit of doing many things that you just can't do with a Blu-ray Disc such as buy low-cost SD versions of both films and TV shows that can be viewed not only on your TV, but also on your laptop computer when you travel or on your iPhone or iPod. So it's much more versatile.

4. With Apple TV, you can browse literally thousands of video and audio podcasts and many of those are absolutely free.

5. with Apple TV, you can watch YouTube videos on your TV.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

Mark,

I'll extend the same challenge to you.

Please post one link... just one... to any credible manufacturer or production firm doing genuine 1080/60p acquisition, editing, distribution.

It's been three (3) years since Randy Hoffner of ABC wrote this article:

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/Tech-Corner/f_randy_hoffner.shtml

What 1080/60p native signals are available for display on these visually stunning 1080/60p displays? We are told that the PlayStation 3 console will have a 1080p output with games released on Blu-ray discs. We are also told that there are 1080p movie trailers available on the Internet. But wait! These started life as 24fps film, so are they really 60fps? In sum, the resolution capabilities of advanced displays have caught up to the resolution of the 1920 x 1080/60p HD scanning format, but it will be a while before there is much native 1080/60p material available for viewing.

So do you think it's going to take another three (3) years before 1080/60p production/distribution will actually be a reality?

If so, are you content to spend a wad of cash on a 1080p screen just to watch the few Blu-ray Disc titles that are available in the 24 frames per second format?

That's your choice.

Doesn't seem worth it to me.

Currently, 1080p is "much ado about nothing."



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

1080p all the way baby.

[Jerry Jones]

Another huge advantage of Apple TV is that it will allow you to stream all of the photos on your hard disk to your TV:

http://www.apple.com/appletv/

No need to go through the steps of creating a DVD.

You just turn on your computer, your TV, and plug-in your Apple TV.

And Apple TV does support 1080p output.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

Well, it appears Sony's new F-23 CineAlta model here...

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/minisites/cinealta/shoot/f23.shtml

...can actually acquire 1080/60p...

...and if you buy an optional SRW-1 HDCAM SR...

...you can actually *record* 1080/60p.

(Although that appears to be true only since the 3rd quarter of last year, according to the Sony FAQ.)

The recorder alone is supposed to cost more than $50,000 and the cost of the camera is so sky high that it will be quite some time, in my view, perhaps years, before we actually see any "Blu-ray Discs" with content shot in that 1080/60p format.

It's overkill, but it should be able to produce some amazing images... no doubt about that.

Even so, I don't think it's worth spending a huge sum, at this point, on a 1080p TV.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Mehen]

1. I don't rent movies anymore, I buy them.
2. If I started downloading movies, know what I would do with them? Want to burn them to disc!
3. Bandwidth, bandwidth, bandwidth.
4. The 1080p/720p price gap is shrinking.
5. I can by low-cost versions too - they are called DVDs.
6. I can lend out or borrow discs. Or take them to friends houses.
7. I CAN GO ON THE INTERNET TO WATCH TRAILERS.

[Jerry Jones]

Yes, but when you buy DVDs -- and I've gone down this road already myself -- you must put them somewhere.

You have to physically store them.

When your collection grows big -- as mine has -- you suddenly realize the folly of optical discs.

Because they're literally occupying the entire living room.

I won't be repeating this foolishness with high definition because all of my purchased movies will reside on a hard disk.

In addition, when I exercise, I like a small music playback device.

So an iPod just works for that purpose... much better than a CD or DVD player.

And I can also use the iPod to watch movies and TV shows, too.

And the same digital file can be played on the Apple TV through my music system in the living room.

The Apple digital file paradigm shift is major.

...and now a new column...

"Seven Reasons To Forget Blu-ray"

Link: http://www.usnews.com/blogs/daves-do...t-blu-ray.html



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

Mark,

4K is already here.

So let's explore your dream.

1. A screen so big that you would have to build a living room the size of a football stadium.

2. Four or five truckloads of Blu-ray Disc movies tumbling out of your bookcases.

3. But since Blu-ray can't display 4K, you're already bored with all of those obsolete discs.

4. So you whip out your credit card and charge a 4K camera for your home movies:

http://www.dalsa.com/dc/

5. That causes your phone to ring too much and you have to sell the 4K camera and settle for one of these:

Arriflex D-20:

http://www.arri.com/prod/cam/d_20/d_20.htm

Panavision Genesis:

http://www.panavision.com/index.php

Sony CineAlta F-23:

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/minisites/cinealta/shoot/f23.shtml

C'mon, Mark...

...all the way, Baby!

4K is here.

It's knocking on your door and it has your number.

Go for it.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

1080p all the way baby. Or at least until we start seeing 4k coming around the bend.