The IT industry is shifting away from Micro$oft

[The PIT]

Windoze is hard don't be silly.

Want too install a programme slap in the CD and run setup.

Linux. Download the programme find the right rpm for your distro if there is one or otherwise compile using instructions that miss out steps or have no trouble shooting guide. If it compiles whoah lucky next hopefully it's added to your menu. Err no off we go no where did the installer put the programme the instructions don't tell you.

Of course then these the dependancies you need update some libraries. Nice if you've got a fast internet connection pain otherwise. Download them and then you find you need some more Grrr.

Okay you installed the programme after charging all over the internet to get the libraries and it's forgotten to install itself to the kde menu. Sadly the instructions don't tell you where it's put the darn thing so you have to search for it. Still it's fun as a hobby.

If you can handle Linux comfortable you can handle the registry in windoze.

[MultimediaMan]

Leech: abandon ship.

PIT is correct: End Users will not understand. End users will not understand the concept of super user, they most certainly won't understand what it is to compile, and the Command Line is not for them, anyway. If you give them the superuser password, you've just compromised your entire installed base of systems, and you can't do that. (BTW, check out that Root Access Exploit they found the day before yesterday.)

Now, you're quick to throw up ideas for solutions, but what didn't you know (or stop to consider), is that each of your solutions actually causes more problems, because it requires someone to support it some way shape or form.

Take Knoppix: Most End-user machines in the Enterprise DON'T HAVE a CD-ROM or a Floppy Disk that is enabled, and it doesn't take a huge leap of imagination to figure out why. Productivity issues, and baseline installation consideration make it unwise to let your user base install their own programs. You don't want some intern bee-boppin' to the latest 50 Cent Rap Single, either, in most places I've worked (Especially where I work now).

You don't want Tuxracer in the Enterprise, nor Freecell in any case.

I'll look at Xandros, and build a machine on it. The Specs will be, just to be fair:

AMD 1200MPx2
Chaintech 7KDD
1GB RAM
3x ATI 7000 Video cards (AGP, 2x PCI)
Intel/Ambient HaM Modem (Linux-supported)
Intel 82559 10/100 NIC
Turtle Beach Santa Cruz
2x 40GB WD400JB in RAID0
DVD-ROM
CD-RW

We'll see how it goes.

In WinXP-SP1 this has been flawless for over a year. Not one crash or hang.

EDIT: It's $89 Bucks!

[The PIT]

Okay I've been slagging it off but I have noticed vast improvements.

Documentation has improved still needs to written for the novice though rather than presuming the user knows everything.

Programmes have improved but still need a standard install method used by all distros across the board. All need to be self contained a lot more are now but you still get the odd ones.

Programme intregration has improved but theres still room for improvement.

Installionation of Linux has improved by miles and miles but they're still problems.

I would say Linux is still two years away from being ready for Joe average.

[TransformX]

Err...
Sorry that I'm such a noob BUT:
I had an easier time installing RedHat 9 than Windows 2000 (both using CDs from scratch on a brand new computer).
Later, Ximian Desktop & Redcarpet gave me easier and better update function than Microsoft's 'windows update'.

About Exchange, try Evolution.
Even easier, simply go here: www.ximian.com and see what it's all about. I don't know much Linux, but once I started to know Ximian, all I need now is my games and better support for Hebrew and right to left writing.
Once I have those, it'll most probably be bye bye microsoft.
On a side note: Currently there's a government sponsored project in Israel for converting OpenOffice to hebrew so I know I'm half way there.

[Gurm]

One of my biggest gripes is the MISSING DOCUMENTATION.

I'm sure I've told this story before, but here goes...

-----------------

So I went to install Mandrake 9. Now I had heard good things about it. I know better now, but hindsight is of course 20/20.

The install went just fine. Most of my hardware was detected (one of the NICs needed a gentle "nudge" to the driver settings, but otherwise it was all ok) - but this was an older box so I EXPECTED it all to be supported.

Anyway, the fun... err... "fun"... began when I wanted to configure it as a firewall. I knew how to do it the old-fashioned way (although they DID manage to change the iptables functionality from one revision to the next, THANKS guys). But I figured I'd try out the much-vaunted "user friendly GUI".

So I fire up the Mandrake "Internet Connection Sharing" wizard... and all hell breaks loose.

Let me interrupt for a moment to explain that this machine had 3 NICs. Yeah, 3. One was a gateway NIC to mount SAMBA filesystems on my neighbor's LAN, so it had an IP address in his range. One went to the DSL modem. And the last one went to my local LAN.

Well, the FIRST thing that the ICW does is disable my third NIC. Outright. And this was when I first discovered two horrific things:

1. There was NO documentation for the ICW. Yeah, blank MAN pages, blank HTML files saying "insert ICW documentation here".

2. It was doing things that I couldn't find or discover.

So, the internet sharing worked. My DSL modem was in fact now shared out to my local LAN. But the third NIC was completely disabled. I couldn't figure out HOW, either. It wasn't in any of the documentation, and the system reported it to be 100% functional. It passed all its tests, but pings out of it (even loopback pings) just expired in transit.

Ok, fine. I'll just UNDO what I did, right?

Here's horrific thing #3:

3. THE ICW IS BROKEN. HORRIBLY BROKEN. It will not let you undo anything. You can SELECT "disable internet connection sharing"... but it won't actually turn it off. You can MANUALLY kill the service, but it'll come back next time you boot the machine.

So I checked the usual places. It wasn't in ANY script. It wasn't in any rc.* file. It wasn't ANYWHERE.

At this point I became frustrated. So I logged onto the official Mandrake support forum. I sent a polite message. Some people would accuse me of being an ****ole on this forum, but you didn't read the post - it was nice. It went something like this:

"Hey, I'm a first-time user of the Mandrake 9 GUI tools. The ICW seems to have hijacked a bunch of my settings, and I can't for the life of me figure out where it is configured. There's no help file for it, and it won't turn itself off (the boxes don't stay deselected). Help!"

The response I got ... from a member of the Mandrake support team... was:

"You're a ****ing loser n00b. Go away unless you have a real problem."

To which I less than politely responded "How am I supposed to discover this information, since all the USUAL avenues of discovery - such as web searches, man pages, HTML help files, and even the scripts on the machine itself... are turning up empty?"

His response THIS time was:

"ROFLMAO you are such an idiot. If you can't figure this out maybe you should go play with your gramma's speak 'n' spell."

He was joined by several OTHER Mandrake forum regulars who added such useful things as:

"RTFM, n00b ****er." (Didn't I just tell them there WAS no manual for the ICW?)

"U R Faggit." (THAT is grown-up.)

"Dumb****." (Apparently.)

etc. etc.

----------------------

So I reinstalled Mandrake. And didn't use the graphical tools. I used my old friend IPTABLES and did it the old fashioned way - which was less than thrilling, since there was no nice graphical tool to set port forwards and stuff with.

---------------------

Now, in the final analysis, the trouble turned out to be smoothwall. Yes, this overblown excuse for a firewall takes over your machine. I STILL never found where smoothwall was called from. It's not in any of the RC.* files, or in the list of startup services, or in anyone's login scripts... but it gets invoked anyway.

And it takes over everything on your machine with its bizarre rules. And the ICW did NOTHING other than call the smoothwall setup with some parameters. And apparently whoever wrote the ICW got the parameter for "deactivate" wrong. Forgot the '-' or something.

But this is exemplary of the PROBLEM with Linux. Someone forgets a '-', and instead of just coming out and saying "yeah there's a problem with that" they say "**** off you retard". At least Microsoft wastes a couple hours of my time having me TRY things (even if they're ultimately useless), and never EVER swears at me or tells me to "go away you retard".

THAT is my problem with Linux lately. It's getting better, sure. But their "support" is a bunch of 15-year-olds who are full of themselves. Their "GUI apps" are buggy and badly written (although getting much better, and the stuff that comes standard with KDE or Gnome is very nice, I have to say).

Overall it was a hideous experience. It teaches me that if I want to use Linux I _still_ have to use the command line. Which is NOT good enough for 99% of users out there right now. So your ongoing contention that the command line isn't needed any more, that things just WORK, and that 99% of users could use Linux without a problem... is just plain flawed.

NOW... this was 9 months ago. Long enough to gestate a fetus. I've since rebuilt the box, and I'll be trying again, only this time with U2W SCSI RAID. Suggestions as to a distro that won't PISS ME OFF? I'd love to give it a fair chance, honestly. Here's what I need to do with this box:

- Host Apache server
- Host MySQL server
- Run PHP under Apache
- Host FTP server
- Host sourcecode for ongoing projects (via CVS or some reasonable facsimile)
- Host samba files

I do NOT need to host a firewall, my wireless setup is now configured for that just fine.

So, suggestions?

- Gurm

[Kurt]

Originally posted by TransformX
Err...
Sorry that I'm such a noob BUT:
I had an easier time installing RedHat 9 than Windows 2000 (both using CDs from scratch on a brand new computer).
Later, Ximian Desktop & Redcarpet gave me easier and better update function than Microsoft's 'windows update'.

About Exchange, try Evolution.
Even easier, simply go here: www.ximian.com and see what it's all about. I don't know much Linux, but once I started to know Ximian, all I need now is my games and better support for Hebrew and right to left writing.
Once I have those, it'll most probably be bye bye microsoft.
On a side note: Currently there's a government sponsored project in Israel for converting OpenOffice to hebrew so I know I'm half way there.

Cool, it can even work as a client for Exchange 2000 server. That way it can add all the features Exchange does and it doesn't.

[cjolley]

Originally posted by leech
...
This one kills me. Isn't this why some companies ARE switching to linux. Because they have internal development staff AND with linux they have the SOURCE CODE??? Need a bug fixed, they can fix it themselves without having to wait on someone else.

You mean to say that you think any* internal dev staff has time to maintain and manage their own particular copy of the OS code?
In this day & age?
Why would they devote time to that?

1, If we buy off-the-shelf, we get maintainence and bug fixes.

2, If we contract software, we get maintainence, bug fixes, and the code just in case the contractor goes belly up.

3, If we write our own, well that speaks for it's self.

But spend time bug checking and maintaining our own unique copy of the OS?
No way! That's part of #1.
What would we do when it came time to upgrade the OS?
Start over?
Meld in our prev changes and hope it didn't break something?
That would be nuts!

About the closest we've ever come to what you seem to be talking about is a bit hacking in some scanner drivers.
And that eventualy got replaced by an off the shelf driver package because it lowered our ongoing maint costs.

chuck

* By "any" I do not mean specialized graphics or science shops.
Those are special case and represent 0% of the market.

[Gurm]

I love this. The Linux fans here seem to feel that "in house developers" are ACTUALLY WILLING TO DEBUG THE OS!

ROFLMAO!

Last place I worked there were TWO people on IT staff. Me (as Network admin) and one other guy (as developer). Then he quit, leaving JUST ME.

Are you high on crack? You think in a scenario like that (which is more and more common in this economy) that there's a snowball's chance in HELL that the developer is going to spend ANY time delving into the OS?

ROFLMAO.

- Gurm

[The PIT]

Originally posted by TransformX
Err...
Sorry that I'm such a noob BUT:
I had an easier time installing RedHat 9 than Windows 2000 (both using CDs from scratch on a brand new computer).
Later, Ximian Desktop & Redcarpet gave me easier and better update function than Microsoft's 'windows update'.

Eh??? You must have had a defective CD or a pirated one. Done loads and loads of windoze installations of all flavours and none of them unless it's defective hardware had caused much trouble. Linux installs very rarely complete correctly in comparrison.

Last five installs of Linux.

Redhat 9.0 on four machines five installs in total.
Two identical machines Redhat crashed out on one had to use not graphical interface. Both then installed but one would only run at 800 x 600. The other working one died altogther on a kernal update. Re-installed then after a software install can't remember what had to wiped off as it became unstable.

Redhat 9 on the machine at home went fine but onboard network card wasn't correctly reconised new kernal needed to fix this. 9800 pro not properly supported but since it was a not a series machine not bothered by this.

Mandrake 9.0 at work went like on a dream no problem but wouldn't shutdown properly.

Mandrake 9.2 wouldn't upgrade Mandrake 9.0 had to wipe hard drive as GUI wouldn't do anything to the hard drive other than that. Otherwise worked like a dream.

So as you can see Linux isn't a bed roses as Linux fanboys like you too believe.

[The PIT]

Gurm that didn't happen you imagined it you went to sleep and had a bad dream.
You should have asked here people are helpful i find even if you do slag thier favorite operating system.

[TransformX]

The Pit,

Neither crashed or gave me any problems.
Redhat's setup (anaconda ?) was much nicer and more comprehensive than Win2k's.
Better graphics, less vague, more options (if I want them) etc. etc. etc.
Forget everything you know about windows for a second, take a new computer and go through the setup process of Win2k vs. RedHat 9 and you'll see which is more comprehensive and intuitive.

In win2k as well as with Redhat I needed to get the latest driver online etc. Redhat was harder to configure (Init 3, text editing) but looked much better before and after using generic vesa driver compared with windows's 640x480@4bit color.

edit: by the way, I'm far from being a linux fanboy. Especially after destroying my current installation X setup while trying to update my graphic driver. What I'm sayin is that Linux is running forward at full speen while microsoft are getting lazy.

Microsoft started by imitating other companies. Now that they destroyed most of them, they kind of froze.

[runderwo]

I'm trying badly to lay off this thread.

Gurm, if you decide to go with a Debian-based distribution such as Xandros, Libranet, stock debian, knoppix, etc, the forums over at http://www.debianhelp.org are the best resource I can offer. I can also offer you some of my own time to help you with any problems you might have with a Debian system.

[cjolley]

Originally posted by runderwo
I'm trying badly to lay off this thread.

Why?
Dive on in.
The water's fine.
chuck

[Gurm]

Runderwo, thanks. I'll have to do a little research before I pick out my next "punishment" from amongst the many "attractive" choices.

TransformX, you need to get a grip. Last time I checked, Microsoft's recent OS'es booted me into a nice 1024x768x32bpp mode. In fact, WinXP puts you in the highest mode your monitor supports easily, at 32bpp, whether it has a driver for your video device or not! (Yeah, VESA just like Linux...)

Of course now one of you will say something like "yeah they ripped that off of Linux". But I'll put forth that it just wasn't feasible before. Just now is when ISA cards are no longer supported, and you can be sure that if a card SAYS it supports 1024x768x16bpp through VESA that you will actually GET that when you select that mode in software. Even two years ago that wasn't the case - lots of cards CLAIMED support for VESA but didn't really have it. Or reported modes supported and they didn't work. I recall more than one install of Red Hat 6 that went south very rapidly because the video card just wasn't what the OS expected.

Or how about NIC support? I remember that neither Slackware NOR Red Hat supported all the various incarnations of the 3Com 3c509/3c905. It would identify the chip and then crap out. I actually had to go pester the guy who wrote the driver (over at MIT) to whip me up a new batch because a new chip revision had come out. Turns out the code was EXACTLY the same, it just needed to recognize the new chip ID.

My point in all of this is that Linux has a LONG way to go. In some areas it is making gigantic strides to catch up and even surpass Windows. In other areas it is still so substandard as to be laughable.

- Gurm

[albatorsk]

Seriously, who here has said that Linux doesn't have any drawbacks? Who here has said that it's perfect? Then what's with the constant fanboy impression? Is it furthering the discussion in any way? It only makes you Windows users look childish.

Most people in the Alternate Lifestyle forum is friendly and helpful (though it doesn't help when someone comes charging in and says "Help me or else...").

I must say I'm quite chocked by the way Gurm was treated by the Mandrake support staff. I'd never ever touch any of their products again after that. Much the same way I'll be steering clear of Matrox products when it's time to move on from the Parhelia. If I were you I'd try Slackware. Since you've worked with real Unices before, the oldstyle BSDinit shouldn't be a problem (heck, it's simple compared to SysV), and the text installer is very straight forward. The distribution is easy to use, is well documented and has a community at http://www.linuxpackages.net.