car buying these days...

[VJ]

The car does not have to be 4x4 (I don't intend to offroad), but it would be nice to have in winter - especially now that we are considering driving to Belgium in winter, before we just avoided that. The roads around the dealer were quite bad, and it was nice to see how the car behaves as if potholes and such are not there. I once drove a friends Jeep Grand Cherokee on a forest road, and it reminded me of that (my Polo was dancing around on that same road ).

My wife and I both liked that the Subaru does not look so massive. It is surprising to read it is just 10 cm shorter than my fathers old Volvo 850 or my inlaws Dacia Lodgy. The Imprezas are not really popular, which is why there are no Impreza's in stock (a bit of a shame: a full equipped Impreza is nearly 3000 eur cheaper than a full equipped XV, and the only difference is that the XV is just higher on its wheels). Ordering a Subaru now has at least a 6 month waiting list, so not so interesting (I did order the Polo 19 years ago, waited 3 months for it). Interesting that the Subaru in reviews often tend to be considered disappointing by not being sportive, with reviewers lamenting Subaru's history; it is like the brand's history makes them now quite lame in reviewers' eyes. The Mazda CX-30 is quite similar in size and shape, so might also be interesting. It seems quite well equipped at a decent price, but from reviews I found it is said to be slightly less comfortable and less noise isolated. But comfort is very subjective, so for sure we'll try. UK-based reviews also list the Volvo XC40 as a competitor, but price-wise that for sure is not the case in Poland. Cupra Formentor would be another candidate, but it is not Euro 6d. The Lexus UX has quite a high base price and we would add some options, making it unlikely to be available soon.... We may today pass via a Volkswagen dealer to check their offers, but it is a bit a similar story: low base price, many options (and cars from stock with automatic gearboxes tend to be expensive versions, making it less likely that something in stock would appeal to us). Honda HR-V just became available here, so we'll check it also...

[UtwigMU]

Having a reliable car in these times is a must. Subaru, Mazda and VW are all good choices. 4x4 can be handy if you need to cross border outside of checkpoints.

Don't order car, take the car that is physically present at the dealership.

Heard another KIA story. A guy who works as a cook in restaurant bought KIA Cee'd some years ago, new on leasing. The dealership gave him around 7k discount or so on 21k car. (But I think once he would have calculated cost of leasing, it would amount to same).

Since now his family needs a bigger car, he wanted to return the car and get another brand. Problem is he would have to pay discount difference, so it would cost him a lot and it's a problem for him. Only option for him is selling the car so that the new owner continues leasing or taking a significant financial hit (paying 7k to dealership and then selling car for around 10-15k).

[VJ]

Just had a test-drive with a Subaru XV (in the US, this is the CrossTrek)... It was very comfortable, and silent. You completely did not feel the bad road surface and it was very light to steer. The trunk looked small, but when checking the dimensions it is quite ok (a bit is lost due to the hybrid battery). They have quite some stock of this model coming in, and due to the fact that in Poland you just have four trim-levels and no options, there is a big chance that we would not have to wait long.

It is however near the top end of what we would like to spend. Next on our list are Volkswagen and Mazda... From the online pricelists, it will be possible to get a cheaper Volkswagen (Golf, T-roc), but it will be less equipped for that lower price. Similar for Mazda. Of course Subaru has the AWD... also possible in the Mazda and then it seems to bring the price to a similar point.

The lack of a waiting time could be interesting, given our uncertain plans for going in Christmas to Belgium... main reason to consider the car is long drives to Belgium... a bit inspired/necessitated by the issues planning trips in covid times... By car it is much easier to quickly react to changing situations, and the cost of the trip is known, no matter when you go.

[VJ]

Just heard a story of a friend of my in-laws.
He got a Kia Sportage 2019 second hand, and something broke. When trying to get it fixed under warranty, he learned the car has no warranty. It turns out it was imported from the Czech Republic, where the original buyers resigned from warranty to get a big discount. Then it was imported to Poland, without this knowledge and a used car dealer (quite a big chain) sold it to him. He managed to get the place where he bought the car to take it back and paid extra to get a newer model (for which he used the VIN to check the warranty at an official Kia dealer, before buying it). But adding up the cost of the first car and the money he paid extra, he ended up paying more than what he would have paid for a new car. And his previous car is on the dealer's website as having "first registration in Poland, first owner", so they keep cheating on people...

We just had to cancel a flight to Belgium due to covid issues (actually, instead of boarding the plane in Berlin to fly to Brussels, we took a train to Warsaw), and the current evolution throws a wrench in our Christmas plans as well (possible restrictions, lockdowns, expensive tickets)... In summer we went by car and it showed that going by car to Belgium does have its benefits. So the search for a car became again more of a hot topic. We may visit several dealers next week, a bit curious how long the wait is on cars now...... most likely won't be before Christmas if we opt for a new one...

[VJ]

To each their own, but I think the depreciation resulting from the simple act of driving a new car out of the showroom is greater than the risk of losing money on a second hand car that you can submit for an independant technical audit prior to buying it.
In my rather limited experience with Japanese and rental cars, I've never noticed a sagging driving seat (maybe it's more likely with leather seats?).

My parents don't have leather seats... With my back problems, comfort is very important. I would even consider changing the seat to e.g. an ergonomic Recaro if the second hand car would be a good solution otherwise. I have yet to sit in a Toyota I find comfortable for example... Subaru is comfortable for me (and am still looking at those in secondhand market - but they are not cheap ).

To me it is not so much about losing money but rather about the piece of mind: I do not intend to sell the car but drive it to the end (like with my current one: 18 years and going). If I take good care of it, I know its history. However, the whole timeline of LEZ may make my intention of using the car long obsolete. So I have to agree with you that a new car which would be limited after 2030 (pre-Euro 6d) is pointless, one that goes till 2035 may just be ok for me. But as time goes on that calculation gets worse, making a new car les and less interesting. My current car has the small oil issue of my current car, but I don't know if it is not a sign of things to come. I'm still just worried that a second hand car (provided I find one) may put in a similar - if not more difficult - position in 2030...

[dZeus]

Maybe... but it would have to hold out till 2030... at least... I'm always worried about buying another persons problems... I know people that had good experiences with second hand cars, but most seem to be a bit more knowledgable about it and still often mention something along the lines of "yes, it is good, but...". And I don't like this "but" part.

In addition, the driver seat in many used cars feels uncomfortable to me. Maybe because I don't weigh much (<58 kg), but quite often the driver seat feels sat through. This happened with my parents Volvo 850 after a couple of years and not many kilometres and also with their current car (my father weighs 80kg, so not extreme).

I'm not adverse to buying a new car: I like the peace of mind that comes with it. There can be problems (my first car had ample), but then at least there is the warranty which limits your financial loss.

Meanwhile, shortly after posting my post yesterday, my oil light went on again. I ended up adding 400 ml after about 1000 km since the last time I added oil. I checked later on a cold engine and the oil level is now again perfect. While this oil usage is within norm according to the manual it is a rather a lot and a bit cumbersome/worrying. I've noted the kilometres and will keep monitoring the level... The car was already checked out at a dealer and nothing out of the ordinary was diagnosed.

To each their own, but I think the depreciation resulting from the simple act of driving a new car out of the showroom is greater than the risk of losing money on a second hand car that you can submit for an independant technical audit prior to buying it.
In my rather limited experience with Japanese and rental cars, I've never noticed a sagging driving seat (maybe it's more likely with leather seats?).

[VJ]

If you buy a reliable brand with sub-100K kilometrage I don't see much risk.

Maybe... but it would have to hold out till 2030... at least... I'm always worried about buying another persons problems... I know people that had good experiences with second hand cars, but most seem to be a bit more knowledgable about it and still often mention something along the lines of "yes, it is good, but...". And I don't like this "but" part.

In addition, the driver seat in many used cars feels uncomfortable to me. Maybe because I don't weigh much (<58 kg), but quite often the driver seat feels sat through. This happened with my parents Volvo 850 after a couple of years and not many kilometres and also with their current car (my father weighs 80kg, so not extreme).

I'm not adverse to buying a new car: I like the peace of mind that comes with it. There can be problems (my first car had ample), but then at least there is the warranty which limits your financial loss.

Meanwhile, shortly after posting my post yesterday, my oil light went on again. I ended up adding 400 ml after about 1000 km since the last time I added oil. I checked later on a cold engine and the oil level is now again perfect. While this oil usage is within norm according to the manual it is a rather a lot and a bit cumbersome/worrying. I've noted the kilometres and will keep monitoring the level... The car was already checked out at a dealer and nothing out of the ordinary was diagnosed.

[dZeus]

edit:
Sorry, misread your post... Yes, little residual value is realistic... Just seems a bit annoying... been driving an old car for quite some time (got the Polo when it was new), and then now get a used car... somehow I'm always worried about buying another person's problems. Perhaps I'm too negative on that...
OTOH, there I should also count for limited residual value on a newly bought car if it survives till 2035...

Maybe I'm just trying to find excuses for myself to replace an 18 year old Polo...?

If you buy a reliable brand with sub-100K kilometrage I don't see much risk. Honda are supposed to be among the most reliable car manufacturers hence my choice (as well as the Civic having a large boot). I'd never buy a new car as I don't see the economic sense (unless there's some fiscal incentive like a leasing construction that compells you to buy new).

It makes a lot of sense to buy in a large secondhand market where people like to get new shiny cars each 3-8 years, like Germany or the UK, and then import the car yourself. Of course you might not prefer a right hand steering wheel, hence the more obvious choice would be Germany for you.

[UtwigMU]

This EV only plan by 2035 is pipe dream baring any unforeseen black swan. Maybe the elite's vision is that only classes which owned cars pre WW2 will continue to own their own cars. You will own nothing and you will be happy.

Mean construction time for Nukes is 7.5 years, coal plants are banned, hydros are all dammed in Europe. The energy grid is in no way following even the organic uptake of EVs, moreover the state mandates. So during this time the plan will probably get some revisions or non-woke politicians who know they can't politically compel physics will come in power. The core EU is now importing coal electricity from periphery, if that is gone we lack base power already.

Like dDzeus said: get used petrol with as new euro rating as economically viable. People buy used cars and resell them to Eastern Europe or Middle east. Market will be down but it will be there It's not a big deal whether your 15y old used car is worth 2k or 1k Eur.

[VJ]

Yes I can see your problem. I'd look at buying a second hand petrol Euro 5 or 6 from Germany and import it yourself, and plan to use it until at least 2030 and expect little residual value at that point.

edit:
Sorry, misread your post... Yes, little residual value is realistic... Just seems a bit annoying... been driving an old car for quite some time (got the Polo when it was new), and then now get a used car... somehow I'm always worried about buying another person's problems. Perhaps I'm too negative on that...
OTOH, there I should also count for limited residual value on a newly bought car if it survives till 2035...

Maybe I'm just trying to find excuses for myself to replace an 18 year old Polo...?

[dZeus]

I'm not considering diesel at all.

I would hope that by 2030 EV infrastructure is sufficient, but am not too convinced. My bigger worry would be if I would need to buy a car in e.g. 2025, either new or second hand: less new fuel-cars on the market, and a potential big demand on the second hand market. And then throw in the ever increasing price of cars (maybe this may be less true for electric - time will tell) and the inflation....

Yes I can see your problem. I'd look at buying a second hand petrol Euro 5 or 6 from Germany and import it yourself, and plan to use it until at least 2030 and expect little residual value at that point. The longer you wait, the more the resale value of your current car will drop. At the same time, I don't see second hand Euro5/6 petrol cars coming down in price much over the next 2+ years.

[VJ]

I'm not considering diesel at all.

I would hope that by 2030 EV infrastructure is sufficient, but am not too convinced. My bigger worry would be if I would need to buy a car in e.g. 2025, either new or second hand: less new fuel-cars on the market, and a potential big demand on the second hand market. And then throw in the ever increasing price of cars (maybe this may be less true for electric - time will tell) and the inflation....

[dZeus]

I have a Civic hatchback 2012 model with 1.3l petrol, and it's conform EURO5 norm. It gets 'Crit'air 1' rating over here, which means it's good until at the very least 2026 (when all diesels will be banned from access to the city here). I'm assuming that by 2030 EV infrastructure and prices should have come down enough to find attractive prices, and tge Honda should last at least another 8 years as it's not used much. I don't plan to buy a car more often than once per decade.

I'd be very careful with buying a diesel these days, as a lot of cities are starting to or have plans to ban them from accessing their infrastructure. EVs are just a gimmick for now, as there are too many constraints for long distance, lack of quick charging stations and I'd expect at least some sort of electricity infrastructure crisis in the next 5 years before it's a wise option to buy one as your only car.

[VJ]

Just to revive this thread: we are planning another car-trip to Belgium. So I decided to check up on low emission zones, etc., as in Belgium it is necessary to register for these low emission zones. In Belgium, as in many EU countries, several cities have low emission zones (LEZ). While cities in Flanders (Ghent and Antwerp) only provide a timeline till 2028, Brussels provides it till 2036. Theoretically, Brussels can differ from Flanders, but the timeline till 2028 is the same, so it seems logical to assume it will be similar afterwards.

The LEZ uses the Euronorm of the car to decide what cars are allowed to enter. For fuel-powered cars in Brussels, the timeline is as follows:
2025: only Euro3 and above
2028: only Euro4 and above
2030: only Euro6d and above
2035: Euro6d not allowed

My Polo - surprisingly - has Euro4 and thus will still be allowed even till 2030. I mentioned those euronorms in my first post, however the bigger worry is that some of the cars on sale NOW are not even Euro 6d.

This means that even if you buy a new car now, you won't be allowed in many cities from 2035 (if we consider Brussels as a reference), and if you happen to not look at the euronorm when you buy a car, you won't be allowed from 2030... just 8 years from now. Going hybrid does not solve this, as they are bound by the same Euronorm... While Ford and BMW do geofencing which makes the car drive on full electric in LEZ, this only works if there is enough charge in the battery. So while geofencing is nice in theory, it may be too complicated to regulate it. First indications are that such cars may get a short extension (one year or so), but even that is not certain.

Worse is for second-hand cars. New car sales are down a lot now, which means that, in a couple of years, there will also not be many second hand cars that meet the Euro 6d norm. As manufacturers are switching to electric and even halting engine development, it seems to me that it will be more and more difficult to get a fuel powered car that has Euro6d in the near future. And people might be holding on to them.

Of course the solution would be electric, but my usage and place of living are quite incompatible with the limits of electric cars. The range estimates are all based on low speeds or some balanced evaluation. But if you run e.g. the range simulator on Citroen's website (for the eC4), then the advertised range of 323 km drops to 171 km if you set the speed to 130 kph with an outside temperature of 15°C. It drops down to 154 km at 0°C. Their charging simulator further shows that it takes an hour and a half to fully charge the car at a 50kW charger (most powerful ones here; on the more common 22kW it would take 5 hours). A drive of 400km (one way, all the time highway) which is now possible in 3.5-4 hours would easily take a couple of hours more. A two-day meeting (from day 1, 11.00 to day two 15:00, 400 km away) suddenly becomes a 4 day endeavour... More expensive cars have better range and are more consistent independent of speed (e.g. Porsche Taycan ~ 316 km, Tesla), but are really out of my price range.

Most likely, in a few years time the range of lower priced cars will get better, but I'm now considering if not getting a car with Euro 6d norm. I'd be ok till 2035 (which is 13 years from now) when it comes to driving in cities, and most likely even longer in Poland, where there currently are no LEZ. It would allow me to postpone getting an electric car for as long as possible, which may be the most economic option for now. Not sure about second hand: it seems a bit pointless to get a recent second hand car (Euro6d) as it will be very new (and priced close to a new car), slightly older (pre-Euro6d) is also quite expensive and would only be ok till 2030. It is of course always possible to get an older one, and consider it disposable by 2030... but what if electric infrastruture would still not be good enough for me then? I'm a bit worried I'd be out of options then...

My worry is basically that my Polo may not survive long enough to be able to get e.g. an electric that suits my usage, but it may survive long enough for me to be left without a good alternative for some years (e.g. if it were to break down in 2024)...

Am I over-analyzing it?



PS1: Brussels LEZ calendar, in Dutch: https://leefmilieu.brussels/sites/de..._2025-2035.pdf
PS2: Citroen simulator, in Polish but it the simulator is understandable in any language: https://www.citroen.pl/gama/samochod...nowy-e-c4.html
PS3: Porsche simulator; in Polish but usable in any language: https://porsche.pl/model/taycan/taycan/

[VJ]

Just got back. They confirm it is not leaking oil and don't see any issues: all seals are fine, engine diagnostics are also fine.
The suggestion is on the next oil change (in April) to change to an oil with higher viscosity.

At least it gives me piece of mind; there should be no issues taking it for long drives.