Today is a sad day...

[Rags]

Then why not take down the New York state flag, because it was up in a time when Indians, Asians, blacks, and Irish were discriminated against? How about taking down the Wyoming state flag because it was flown during a time that our nation signed treaties that it never fulfilled? How about changing the American Flag because it has flown during: Slavery, Civil War, Gov't killing it's own youth, Gov't testing on it's citizens, Gov't destroying our land, killing our wildlife, raping our land for gold/silver/gas/oil/uranium/mica/soda ash/wood, imprisoning thousands of Americans of Asia descent, the killing/torturing of thousands of Indians, the killing/torturing of so-called commies, the out-right murder of college protesters, etc.
****EDIT****---
While we are at it, let's burn all papers that may have potentially offensive writing on it, and block out all websites that may have something on it that someone doesn't like. Let's ban T-Shirts that may say something offensive, or have the wrong color on it. Hell, why not have good ol' U.ncle S.ugar tell us what can and can't be read, seen, heard, or felt. You know, us Americans can't decide for ourselves what we want to see/hear/feel/taste, 1984 here we come. What a messed up and bland world it's going to be if this kind of crap is to continue.
---****END EDIT****

Now think about what is actually happening. Just because a group of narrow-minded individuals hold a flag as their symbol of racism/hate/prejudice, does not make it fair for the other narrow-minded individuals to take that flag away from the MANY other people who see this flag as a symbol of heritage, of pride that States shall retain certain rights (as they should), that their heritage is something to be proud of. It is very simple.

Rags

And I am NOT, in any way, a racist individual. I am not prejudice, and I can say that with pride.


[This message has been edited by Rags (edited 06 July 2000).]

[Joel]

You are now. Because you dared to say anything againist that small group that would like to see us do away with anything 'white'.

Joel

Think about this for a minute. Where was Jesse Jackson when all this mess was going on with that Cuban boy? Now where would he have been if that had been a black boy? People like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton don't want racial harmony because then they would be out of a job.

[This message has been edited by Joel (edited 06 July 2000).]

[cjolley]

On a "lighter" note.
Holly? Jord? Anglo Saxon from Holland? Hmmmmmm.
chuck

[Helevitia]

Rags wrote:

"Then why not take down the New York state flag, because it was up in a time when Indians, Asians,blacks, and Irish were discriminated against? How about taking down the Wyoming state flag because it was flown during a time that our nation signed treaties that it never fulfilled?"

Rags, I'm suprised I have to even explain this one to you. I thought it was plain as day. The confederate flag is well known as a racist induced, hate festering, white sepremacist, brain washing symbol of crap!

Rags wrote again:

"How about changing the American Flag because it has flown during: Slavery, Civil War, Gov't killing it's own youth, Gov't testing on it's citizens, Gov't destroying our land, killing our wildlife, raping our land for l/uranium/mica/soda ash/wood, imprisoning thousands of Americans of Asia descent, the killing/torturing of thousands of Indians, the killing/torturing of so-called commies, the out-right murder of college protesters, etc."

I'm not denying that things such as what you mentioned above happen, but if you put the confederate flag next to an american flag and ask the majority of people to judge each flag, you will find that most people will judge the confederate flag negatively and the judge the american flag positively.

Rage wrote a third time:

"Now think about what is actually happening. Just because a group of narrow-minded individuals hold a flag as their symbol of racism/hate/prejudice, does not make it fair for the other narrow-minded individuals to take that flag away from the MANY other people who see this flag as a symbol of heritage, of pride that States shall retain certain rights (as they should), that their heritage is something to be proud of."

Rags, I totally understand what you are saying, but until we rid racists to a degree where the confederate flag is not a symbol of hate, etc.. we need to temporarily bring it down to show our protest of racism, hate and descrimination. I've never been to South Carolina and I'm hoping that the reason this flag was brought down was due to on going racist issues that have been there for many years. You thi8nk people just woke up one day and said "Hey, you know what! Screw that confederate flag on top of that building, let's get it removed!"


Rags writes again:
"It is very simple."

If it was simple, we wouldn't be arguing over it. You know, I'm an American just like you. Why we are arguing over this seems ludicrous. If you are truely proud of your heritage than you would see that it is there right to choose to remove the flag and you should respect that. They are removing it for much better reasons than keeping it up and sometimes you have to weigh those things out and see what fits better at the moment.

Anyway, I'm sure you will write back and I expect it, but I will not write anymore. I hope you see that I am on your side.

Dave

Rags

And I am NOT, in any way, a racist individual. I am not prejudice, and I can say that with pride.

[Mark F]

I just got around to reading this thread in it's entirty. I will not take any sides in the debates at hand but a few questions, and observations that just couldn't be left unasked/made.

Jord- "we have the word here as well. Nikker." Isn't it 'Kaffir' or is that only Afrikaner (a Dutch based language)?

Holly- "My point was that not having so many years of the essential African slave trade and labor in the national gestalt makes a difference" Weren't the Dutch rather heavy into the slave trade? Not to mention their subjugation of South Africa; till it was taken away by the British.

Joel- I think you hit one of my pet-peeves right on the head: "I just want to say that I have no problems with any group wanting equal rights or equal treatment, but I do have a problem with a group wanting preferential treatment just because of..." I feel it's no more right to give a job or most other preferential treatment based on belonging to a group than it is to denigh based on grouping.

Cjolley- "Anglo Saxon from Holland?" Would that be Upper or Lower Saxony? ?

Well, as I was reading all the post as to the use of hyphenated Americanizims; I was thinking the same thing Brian alraeady said "If you're one generation removed from the "Old Country", then your ties are strong and you were brought up by your parents with alot of ethnic influence. This is a proper use of "ethnic"-american. After you are more than one generation removed from your roots (with some exceptions), you are an American."

Maybe we should force the State that incorporates the confederate flag into their State Flag to change their Flag?

As to the flag issue that started this, well I beleave the decision should be based on a vote of the people in the state. It's not The right of any group or Gov't above the state level, to deside. It should be the people of the state.

Remember people this is a volitale issue to many people. Let's try to resect each others views; weather we agrea or not. That is part of what being an American is about.

Be nice to each other,
Mark F.


------------------
OH NO, my retractable cup holder swallowed a DVD...
and burped out a movie

[cjolley]

Where the heck is saxony anyway?
chuck

PS I believe the Tennessee side of my family (as opposed to the Arkansas side) came from the area where the wonderful burbon I am drinking right now was invented.

[Rags]

Dave,

Rags, I'm suprised I have to even explain this one to you. I thought it was plain as day. The confederate flag is well known as a racist induced, hate festering, white sepremacist, brain washing symbol of crap!

I think I made it very clear, apparently you don't understand. You have a flag that was around before it was a symbol of racism to certain individuals. Just because a few bad apples carry this flag along with them does NOT make that flag a symbol for their cause.

A flag can actually induce something? That's news to me. Hate festering, well I guess if those racists didn't have that flag, I guess they wouldn't be all festered up would they? A flag can be a "white supremacist"? Oh, and just how can a flag brainwash anyone. Please explain.

*sigh* *shakes head*

Rags



------------------
Partnership for an idiot free America

[paulcs]

It's part of Germany. For more on The Free State of Saxony, go to

http://www.sachsen.de/en/index.html

Dresden is in Saxony, if that helps.

Paul
paulcs@flashcom.net

[This message has been edited by paulcs (edited 06 July 2000).]

[cjolley]

Rags,
The problem of the flag changed in the fifties. It was not used by a few individuals, it was used by state governments to protest forced integration.
This goes back to what Joel said.
He said it is a symbol of states rights, I said racism. Actualy, it's both.
The problem is that it was used in association not with some states rights cause like speed limits, or polution control, but with states fighting for the right to have slavery and segregation.
This, unfortunately, has poisoned the battle flag as a symbol of anything but evil.
It is important to recognise how bad slavery was. It cannot be blown off as just a side issue in American History.
Suppose the south had fought for the right to roast babies on a spit and eat them? Would the flag's defenders still maintain that the war was about states rights, with baby roasting as a side issue?
The Confederacy had several flags, pick a different one. Bad people in official power have stained the battle flag and given it a common conotation that is does not serve our country well.
chuck

[Jorden]

Mark F - Jord- "we have the word here as well. Nikker." Isn't it 'Kaffir' or is that only Afrikaner (a Dutch based language)?

Kaffir is as far as I know only South-Afrikaner. While we might have the word in Dutch as well (Kaffer), it's more of a name-calling word than that we say it to negroids or anyone with a darker teint than us whities (which could include all those sun-lovers as well... ).

Mark F, Chuck and Paulcs - "Anglo Saxon from Holland?", Where the heck is saxony anyway?, It's part of Germany.
Oh Great, so now I've become a Northern German as well? While I live in Southern Holland . Probably still one that watches dumb (but hilarious ) American movies to find out his words... on that side note, what does f*ck mean?

Martin - No ofcourse it isn't okay for you to wave a swastika flag around, even though you wouldn't be punished for it in some American states. Heck, probably not even be punished for it when in Holland, or does Jan Maat not say a thing?

Mark F - Weren't the Dutch rather heavy into the slave trade? Not to mention their subjugation of South Africa; till it was taken away by the British.
Yes, they were Mark. Heavy into slavery, that they first took over from the British and the French in the Caribbean, when they conquered the Antilles. And as it was, we had a foothold in Southern Africa anyway, from where we could ship a lot of 'slaves' overseas.
Now don't think the Dutch were the only ones, for the French already had parts of the inland and Ivory Coast in their hands, shipping their slaves from there. The British shipped their slaves from other parts of the African continent, and islands in the Southern Pacific.

For more about how the British got Southern Africa, and how Soutern Africa finally regained it's independency, goto http://www.encyclopedia.com/articles/12110.html

End answer

Dave - What happened to your fiancee?

Jord.

[This message has been edited by Jorden (edited 06 July 2000).]

[HollyBerri]

**heavy sigh** Peace, y'all. I'm out.

------------------
Holly

P.S.-- paulcs, thanks for asking . Ultimately... OK. Lots of vectors of stress, but we've had some fun as well... and I just like the guy, you know? If I make it through the transplant process (and I do mean that in the organ(ic) sense as well as the psychological), I'll be fine. Prayers cheerfully accepted ... H.

[merchant2112]

rags i hate to say it but 1984 is here and is getting worse.

when the movie origanaly came out americans were poled after and asked if they thought that any of what was depicted could happen here. the answer of corse was no. but by the year 1984 90% of everything that was depiceted in the movie and thought (at the time) could never happen was in fact in place in our government and daily lifes. now it is 2000 police cars are equiped with camreas, (for there protection and ours. 6 major citys have cameras stationed in key areas where they are monitored by police and arrests and investigations are made based on the evidence gathered from these tapes. political partys can dictate law and or blackmail state and local government to do what they want them to do weather or not its leagal or ethicly right. our own president can break the law at will and not be held acountable for it. he can commit purgery ect...., murders can get off for racial prosocution. childeren are killing children. the media shapes events to what ever point of view they want reguardless of the facts. our education systems are breaking down produceing students who cant read and write, history is warped to what ever point of view is most popular. hey the only thing we are missing from being a police state is the camersa in our houses and police with expanded powers of search arrest and that we still own guns. (oh wait arent they working on that right now??) 1 takeing our guns away, 2 expanding the rights of the police to grant wider rites to search and powers of arrest?)

the cival war was not about slavery it was about economics, slavery was only a small part of it, a very small partof it. but its what the victors key on

[This message has been edited by merchant2112 (edited 06 July 2000).]

[ahartman]

Isn't the swastika that Hitler used the mirror-image of the good one (isn't it a Celtic symbol)? I doubt most people would take the time (or have the knowledge) to see that the two symbols are different.

The rest of the discussion? I'm not going near it - I live in Illinois so I don't have the emotional attachment most Southerners seem to have about this issue.

[Ees]

No, as far as I know, it was the swastika that represented positive things. But let's not get too focused on this; no need to invoke Godwin's Law just yet. I just want to show that symbols can't be judged by their original meaning alone. They carry their full history with them.

What the true history of the Confederate flag is: I have no idea.

Martin

[cjolley]

Joel,
I believe that I am about the same age as you, I'm 48.
My High School History 1 teacher was a
Civil War expert who was able to bring actual solders diaries from his collection to class. We spent Sept to Dec on 0-1860 and Dec to may 1860-1866.
My American history Professor at the University of Oklahoma was the dean of the Collage of Arts and Sciences.
My stepfather is past president of the Civil War Round Table.
I agree with you that the Civil War was fought over state's rights. The South just picked the wrong issue and stuck with it. They fought for their economic base when they saw that slavery was about to end. England had already abolished slavery and the south knew slavery's time was coming here too.
Regardless of that argument, it doesn't matter what the flag stood for 100 years ago. Flags are symbols; they have no inherent meaning. The meaning is in the eye of the beholder and for most people the meaning of the battle flag is racist.
Chuck

PS Could you check the game thread about the Cow Model Version Problem? I have gone through every permutation of model and Skin I can think of and still can't connect to the server because of the version conflict.




[This message has been edited by cjolley (edited 06 July 2000).]