Gun Registration through IRS!!!!!!!

[ALBPM]

Darn it Otis are you posting with Joel's name again?????

Here's a link with some more insight to SB-2099. It looks like it is dead for now

http://www.calnra.org/sb2099.html

Paul

[Gurm]

Oh my oh my. Yes, please by all means play the race card. Please do. Ooh that hurts.

You're absolutely right - freedoms are routinely violated in the cities. Blacks don't get a fair shake in the underclass, and are routinely victimized.

And we know about it and don't like it.

And, see... here's the rub... our freedoms DO work like they're SUPPOSED to work. They may fail sometimes, but when they do there's a huge public outcry. The NYPD is so close to being sacked as a whole that it isn't even funny any more.

So let's throw away the damn race card, ok? And focus on real differences?

- Gurm

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Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[Jake]

Let's not.

If you took the time to study the site you would know that this is a true depiction of LIFE on the dark side of America. It's about poverty, persecution and dispair for failing to life up to the American Dream (hence the "you can get it if you relaay want it quote")

It's only because of fact that the majority of people in this situation happen to be black that you conclude it to be the "Race card".

Try again,

Jake

[Gurm]

Oh, I'm SORRY. Are there not people living in abject poverty in England and France as well?

I think so.

And it's only the "reality" of life in America if you choose for it to be. Many of us have pretty strong feelings about those who CHOOSE to live in poverty in America. We could argue about whether it's a choice or not, but I tend to think it is.

My dad had a guy working for him a few years back - a black guy, who lived in the local projects, and whose family was desperately poor. (He wasn't the father, he was one of the kids...)

Anyway, this guy was working seasonally for my father. My dad pays pretty well for grunt work, but the work was ending in a couple weeks. I had headed back to college, and my job at a local department store was open. I made maybe $6.50/hr. (this was 1992). My dad suggested that I get this fellow into my open position. I talked to my manager and he said "no problem".

Then we offered the position to this guy, and he said:

"I ain't workin' for no damn white man for no $6.50 an hour!"

Later that year he was arrested and put in jail for selling drugs.

That $6.50 an hour made me enough money to live off at school for the next semester. This fella's family had government assistance, church assistance, food stamps, WIC, etc. etc.

And yet they chose to remain poor. This guy CHOSE not to work at a real job, and instead to commit crimes, and go to jail.

- Gurm

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Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[Joel]

Hey Jake,

If all you do is go looking for the bad that is all you will ever find.

Also if you look into it deeply enough you will see that there are more whites living in poverty in this country than blacks. And IMO the problem lies in our welfare system. As a welfare recipient you recieve all kinds of handouts from the government but the minute you start working, no matter what you get paid, you lose most of those benefits. That is why some choose to stay on welfare and others because they don't feel that there is any other way. What we really need instead of a handout program, that tends to keep people on welfare, is a program that helps the poor by offering incentives to those who are willing to work. And for those able-bodied people who choose not to work, then I say let them rot.

And don't tell me that there aren't jobs out there, that is complete bull. I pass places everyday that have 'Help Wanted' signs in the windows. There is usually 3 to 4 pages of 'Help Wanted' ads in the local paper every Sunday. Even the company I work for is short staffed.

So get off this race thing. Let's stop looking at this as a race problem and see that the real problem is a system that doesn't work.

Joel

[Jake]

Gurm,

I guess you only glanced at that site I referred you to, because I you had read some of the material there you would have known that Jacob Holdt depicts the face of poverty WITHOUT taking sides. Yes, most of the people he portraits are black, but that is coincidence. He traveled troughout the poor communities, black AND white. And his views on rasicm goes both ways too. Like I said before:

It's only because of fact that the majority of people in this situation happen to be black that you conclude it to be the "Race card".

My point, like his, is that poverty is the result of your "every man for himself" politics. In my country the practice of job training and education for the underpriviledged has been a secured right for decades. And it works! But it costs money. Taxpayers money. And you know what? I pay my taxes (50%) with pride knowing that my money will be put to good use by creating a social web, that pick up and help those less fortunate than myself.

Your "choose to be poor line" just proves my point. Get real! If you are born poor in America, there is no way you are raised on even comparatively the same terms of someone from a "normal" family. It's about lack of opportunity. The "every American is born with equal opportunity" is a load of BS.

So you point out an example of "some black guy" you happen to have known, who rejected a job opportunity. Please! We all know "some black guy"!

Jacob Holdt does not base his conclusions on one or two or even a hundred "guys". He does it from having seen the ugly face of true poverty over a period of DECADES. People are NOT poor by CHOICE!

But you might not see or even know of this poverty and misery in your middle class life (suburbia with back yard BBQ and kids playing hockey in the street?). So I guess it does not exist to you.

Joel,

If all you do is go looking for the GOOD that is all you will ever find.

So get off this race thing. Let's stop looking at this as a race problem and see that the real problem is a system that doesn't work.

I could not agree more. I did not make this a race issue. (Read the first two paragraphs of my reply to GURM in this post).

Jake

[This message has been edited by Jake (edited 08 October 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Jake (edited 08 October 2000).]

[Joel]

It's about lack of opportunity.

That is where you have it wrong. The opportunities do exist but it's a matter of the individual taking that opportunity when it presents itself. It's like that old saying, 'You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.'.

It's a matter of Individual responsibility.

Joel

[Jake]

So I guess all the people "cought" by our social system, who have succeded in bettering their lives by getting education and later jobs, where just really RESPONSIBLE to begin with?

And the poor people of America who do not get this kind of help are not?

It just does not add up, Joel...

However, my choice of words in the sentence you so blatantly quoted out of context, was poorly chosen when I wrote it.

It should have read: "It's about unequal opportunity."

And please don't tell me you think working at (mostly below) minimum wage is an opportunity. It's not. It's SURVIVAL.

The ONLY way someone born poor can get the American Dream is by LUCK of the draw (read: one in a million) or by having a truly exceptional talent. (often sports. Again one in a million). That's not what I call opportunity.

Jake

[Joel]

You know Jake, you have a great talent of being able to take something that is said and twisting it every which way but loose. Are you stiving to be a politician?

Your guy painted a very one sided view of America. There have been lots of people who have moved from proverty into the quote 'American Dream' by grabbing onto the oportunities available. We just don't feel that throwing more money at the problem is the solution. We don't want a socialized system. That is why we left England in the first place.

You just don't get it. We value our freedom to choose not to have the government choose it for us.

Of course we have gotten away from the true topic of this thread which was gun control.

Joel

[Sisyfos]

Hi Jake

I'll support you (SOMEWHAT).
To bring a little philosophy in to this: "Tabula rasa", in Denmark we believe that, if you're brought up "properly" you'll have the opportunity.
If not then you are marginalized (I hope you get the meaning of this).
From a Danish viewpoint USA seems much like the originator of "double standards".
Eg. if I write f**k in this forum it'll get censured.

Hmmm, I hope to elaborate on this tomorrow, 'cause I'm PUI if you know what I mean.

[Jammrock]

Jake and Gurm,

Jake, I lived in Denmark, and I know that there are poor people, street bums and racial discrimination there. Maybe not to the extent as some parts of the US, but it does exsist. No matter how well laws are written, no matter how nice the majority of people are, no society will ever be perfect in everybodies eyes.

There are drunkards in Denmark. There are drunk drivers in Denmark. Hell, they sell beer in McDonalds and Pizza Hut in Denmark. They have a different beer for every season and holiday of the year. There are beers with the alcohol concentration of vodka in Denmark. Every city with more than 20,000 people has it's own brewery.

There are militants in Denmark. There are people who own guns in Denmark and kill other people with them, but remember, the US and Denmark are two different beasts. Denmark is about the size of New Hampshire (excluding Greenland), which is one of the small states in the US. Denmark has a total population smaller than Chicago.

We're comparing apples to oranges. We're comparing two societies that are not as similar as most people think. The US's large cities have double to triple the population of Denmark in an area smaller than Sjaeland. I bet Denmark wouldn't be much different than the US if all of Denmark lived on half of Sjaeland. The US cannot be governed like Denmark.

It is unfortunate that guns are needed in some parts of the US, but they are not needed everywhere. I live in the Kansas City area and I don't know a single person who is armed with more than their fists (except for my two police officer friends, but that's part of their job). It all depends on where you live.

And the moral of the story...beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Jammrock

[Jake]

Joel,

You are right. We have strayed from the true topic of this thread. And I was in kind of an arguing mood last night, when I wrote the last two posts.

Politician? It runs in the family. My uncle is the Danish Commisioner to the EU. (Yes little Denmark only has one "minister" in the EU cabinet.) His portfolio is development and aid to the Third World countries. Before he got that posititon, he has been a minister in the Danish government for several years (exactly how many, I don't remember because of a few changes in office.) But he has been a politician in the Danish parliament for more that 25 years now. I guess his constituancy (sp?) REALLY likes him .

I'll spare you my own resume, suffice it to say I have allways been politically active in some form or another. I studied the law one year at the university before I found my true calling as a systems developer.

I guess I chose this path because I enjoy working WITH people to solve complicated problems rather than having to constantly argue to prove a point, which is what politicians do.

There is however a few situations in my life, that cause me to become quite argumentative (agitated? ). This topic was one of those situations. All it takes is a spark...

When it boils down, I enjoy helping others in these forums more than I like to argue in "the box".

To all you guys who participated in this thread I will say, that I hope you will use the "energy" you have displayed here in a positive way in you daily life. Make a difference in your countries and the local communities where you live by exercising your right to vote and debate in public on serious political issues.

There is nothing worse than apathy (sp?).

Regards,

Jake

[Vlip]

Jammrock: You are right, we should not compare Denmark to the US, we may better compare US to Europe.
And what we told still holds on that ground

And for the freedom of speechs, here is a little funny example:
French President Jacques Chirac was visiting Correze, he was in a crowd with his security team when a man sliced through the crowd and the security, put himself in front of Chirac and said something that could be translated by "****ole", to that, Chirac replyed: "Happy to meet you, Jacques Chirac" and shook his hand.

I suppose this guy would have been transformed in dead meat if that would have been the president of the United States.

[Gurm]

Well, he wouldn't have made it to the front of the crowd, since we're a BIT more concerned with people who want to KILL our president. *sigh*

However, we can print "****ole" on the front page of the New York Times.

- Gurm

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Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[Joel]

I suppose this guy would have been transformed in dead meat if that would have been the president of the United States.

We don't normally go around mowing down unarmed individuals. Hell, John Hinkley shot the President and William Brady and we didn't mow him down.

There is however a few situations in my life, that cause me to become quite argumentative (agitated? ). This topic was one of those situations.

You're not alone there as this thread shows.

Joel