Gun Registration through IRS!!!!!!!

[paulcs]

Boy do I *not* like the idea of automated fan controls. I really like the idea of fans being on all the time.

Paul
paulcs@flashcom.net

[This message has been edited by paulcs (edited 11 October 2000).]

[ALBPM]

Me too, but if you could control the RPMs of fans it would be great..

Paul

[DentyCracker]

Sounds like someone has an excess of thyroxine coursing through their blood to me

[Vlip]

Gurm, here is your promised reply.
Those who do not want to revive the flame from this thread should just don't read that message.

Ok, some examples of our "freedoms".
Let's see:
1. If the police come to my door because someone has reported that I have committed a crime, and demand to be allowed in, I can say "no". If they enter anyway, I can defend myself with lethal force. Where else in the world does an individual have the right to refuse the police entry under ALL CIRCUMSTANCES?
Nota Bene: Yes, they can obtain a court ordered warrant to enter my place of residence. Doing so is extremely difficult under any circumstances except things like murder investigations.

In Switzerland Police also needs a court ordered warrant to enter your place, but YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED to kill them if they do without, just tell it to any juge and he will take care to send them to jail!

2. If I publish a magazine, I can say anything I like about anyone I like. I can accuse the government of corruption. I can accuse the president of raping small children. I can print lies, disinformation, and horrible propaganda in the name of editorializing. Nobody can stop me, not even the government.

Art. 16 Freedom of Opinion and Information
1 The freedom of opinion and information is guaranteed.
2 All persons have the right to form, express, and disseminate their opinions freely.
3 All persons have the right to receive information freely, to gather it from generally accessible sources, and to disseminate it.

3. If something happens, I can report it. Loudly. With no reservations. There are no limitations. It's called freedom of the press. We have it. You, for the most part, don't.

Art. 17 Freedom of the Media
1 The freedom of the press, radio and television, and of other forms of public telecasting of
productions and information is guaranteed.
2 Censorship is prohibited.
3 Editorial secrecy is guaranteed.

4. If I want to start a fringe religion based on getting people to worship me whilst naked, I can. In fact, I've been thinking about it (only if it's profitable though, because frankly there are lots of people I'd rather not see naked)! I can start this religion and preach it in the streets if I want to. I can be a Christian, a Scientologist, or a nonpracticing secular buddhist of convenience.

Art. 15 Freedom of Religion and Philosophy
1 The freedom of religion and philosophy is guaranteed.
2 All persons have the right to choose their religion or philosophical convictions freely, and to profess them alone or in community with others.
3 All persons have the right to join or to belong to a religious community, and to follow religious teachings.
4 No person shall be forced to join or belong to a religious community, to participate in a religious act, or to follow religious teachings.

5. I can start a hate group. I can attempt to convince others to join. If I want to be a Nazi, I can be a Nazi. Or a communist. Or any other kind of freaky, fascist wierdo that I want. I can declare myself to be the sovereign nation of Gurmonia, and demand that all entering my house get naked and dance in circles as part of the residency requirements.

Same article 15

6. I can avoid self-incrimination. If called upon to testify in a court of law I can refuse to answer questions which I feel would implicate me. For example:
Judge: Where was Leon on the night in question?
Me: I plead the 5th amendment, your honor.
(Because that night Leon was with me, snorting cocaine and engaging in other illegal activities.)

I’m no specialists in law, so I can’t honestly answer that affirmation

7. I have the right to trial by a jury of my peers. That's right - my peers. Idiots like me. No matter what I did (there are a few exceptions, of course - if the crime was insignificant enough).

I absolutely do not know how it works down here

8. I can pick my own doctor.

So Can I

9. I can pick the school my children will attend - or if they will attend school at all.

Swiss public schools are the best you can get in my country, if you wanna pay for a private school, you are free to do it.

Now, some of these rights and freedoms may be enjoyed by some or all of the folks in Europe. However, many of them are not - or are not REALLY rights. I think you'll find that "freedom of speech" applies only when the government of your country feels it should apply. Freedom of the press is equally dodgy. Heaven forbid we bring up the right to bear arms again (notice I left it out)! Freedom of religion is, in most of Europe... RIGHT OUT.

That’s just plain bullshit to me

And here are the two jewels of our swiss freedom:

Chapter 2: Initiative and Referendum
Art. 138 Popular Initiative for Total Revision of the Federal Constitution
1 100 000 citizens entitled to vote may propose a total revision of the Federal Constitution.
2 This proposal shall be submitted to the vote of the People for its approval.

Art. 139 Popular Initiative for Partial Revision of the Federal Constitution
1 100 000 citizens entitled to vote may propose a partial revision of the Federal Constitution.
2 The popular initiative for a partial revision of the Federal Constitution may be in the form of a general suggestion or a formulated draft.
3 If an initiative does not respect the principle of unity of form, the principle of unity of subject matter, or mandatory rules of international law, the Federal Parliament shall declare the initiative invalid, in whole or in part.
4 If the Federal Parliament approves an initiative in the form of a general suggestion, it shall prepare a partial revision in the sense of the initiative, and submit it to the vote of the people and the Cantons. If it rejects the initiative, it shall submit it to the vote of the People; the People shall decide whether the initiative should be followed. If the People approves the initiative, the Federal Parliament shall formulate a corresponding draft.
5 An initiative in the form of a formulated draft shall be submitted to the vote of the People and the Cantons. The Federal Parliament shall recommend its approval or its rejection. If it recommends its rejection, it may submit its own counter-draft.
6 The People and the Cantons shall vote simultaneously on the initiative and the counter-draft. The voters may approve both drafts. They may indicate which draft they prefer, should both be approved; should one of the drafts obtain the majority of the People's votes and the other the majority of the votes of the Cantons, neither of them shall come into force.

Art. 140 Mandatory Referendum
1 The following shall be submitted to the vote of the People and the Cantons:
a. Revisions of the Federal Constitution;
b. The entry into organizations for collective security or into supranational communities;
c. Federal Statutes declared urgent which have no constitutional basis and whose validity exceeds one year; such Federal Statutes must be submitted to the vote within one year after their adoption by the Federal Parliament.
2 The following shall be submitted to the vote of the People:
a. Popular initiatives for total revision of the Federal Constitution;
b. Popular initiatives for partial revision of the Federal Constitution in the form of a general suggestion which were rejected by the Federal Parliament;
c. The question whether a total revision of the Constitution should be carried out if both Chambers disagree.

Art. 141 Optional Referendum
1 The following are submitted to the vote of the People at the request of 50'000 citizens entitled to vote, or of eight Cantons:
a. Federal Statutes;
b. Federal Statutes declared urgent with a validity exceeding one year;
c. Federal decrees to the extent the Constitution or the statute foresee this;
d. International treaties which:
1. are of unlimited duration and may not be terminated;
2. provide for the entry into an international organization;
3. involve a multilateral unification of law.
2 The Federal Parliament may submit further international treaties to optional referendum.


I know that may seem long and barbare to post parts of the Swiss Constitution, but those are FACTS.

Vlip

P.S: I was forgetting my favorite one:

Art. 10 Right to Live and Personal Freedom
1 Every person has the right to live. The death penalty is prohibited.
2 Every person has the right to personal liberty, particularly to corporal and mental integrity,and to freedom of movement.
3 Torture and any other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment are rohibited.

[This message has been edited by Vlip (edited 11 October 2000).]

[Jammrock]

Vlip,

Yeah, but you're from Switzerland, so you don't count. Switzerland has always been a little different than the rest of Europe. There's a reason why no one ever messed with Switzerland during the two World Wars But that's just what I'm told.

Just a couple of quick question for you Vlip...what are the firearms/gun laws in Switzerland? How many people own one? What do people think about guns there? Just curious.

Jammrock

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Athlon 650, Biostar board, 128 MB PC133 (Crucial), G400 32 MB DH, SB Live! w/ Digital I/O, 10/100 NIC, lots of case fans, etc...

[Vlip]

Jammrock: Quick questions, well not as quick as that, I needed to make a jump on the confederation web site to consult the law that is applyable to that.

Ok, after the RS 514.54 art 3:
"The right to purchase, to own and to carry weapons is garantied by the present law."

Art8:
1 Every person buying a weapon or an essential part of a weapon by a seller must be the owner of a weapon acquisition licence
2 No licence is delivered to people:
a Who aren't 18 year old
b Who are forbidden
c Where it is possible to fear that they use the weapon in a dangerous way to themselves or somebody else
d Who have done violent or dangerous act or for repeted crime or delicts.
5 This licence is valid six months

If you want to carry the weapon you need to have another licence. To get this licence you need to prove that you need a weapon to protect yourself or something against a tangible threat. You also need to pass an exam to proove your are able to handle such a weapon and know the laws about the use of weapons.


Let's stop this laws thingies.
Let's speak about people
Switzerland has a very strong gun tradition, that is because of our militia army who was always based on the fact that every citizen got a gun from the army and had the mission to train itself to use it in case of war.
Right now, I don't know how many people do have guns, most of these guns are military guns. Really few people own other guns.
It may look strange but in our country the percentage of full-auto assault rifles may be bigger than the percentage of handrifles.

I can tell you from all my friends: We all got a gun from the army, we got trained to use them. When we are finished with our yearly training those guns go down in the cave and nobody touchs them till next year.
Mine is idle for six months since I've finished my under-officer school, and I won't touch it till next year.
That's the same with every other of my friends.
So my idea is that our relation to guns is completely different to yours.
We know them by heart, we know how to use them, but we dislike them. They are tools we have to protect our country, every man I know is hoping never to have to use them.

If you want peace, train war. That's our idea. But we don't even think about using those guns against anything else than another army.

I hope I did reply to your questions, if you need some precisions, just ask

[Jammrock]

Vlip,

You answered my questions perfectly. I have heard stories about Switzerland's militia based military, but I have never heard it straight from someone who lived in Switzerland. The Scandinavian countries (at least Denamrk and Norway) have a form of that, but not as in-depth as Switzerlands.

I think the Swiss mentality towards guns is great. I have similar views, too. I shoot guns on occasion, know how to use them, fix them, clean them and fire them, but I am in no way obsessed or want to use one against someone. If two people really want to hurt each other, they should do it like barbarians and use their fists, not like a coward holding a gun (okay, so that's my viking side talking, but you get the point).

I hinted toward reasons why no one messes with Switzerland and they are: 1) Because Switzerland has everyone's money. 2) Everyone has a gun and knows how to use it. How can you fight and army that consists of the entire country? You can't. If an army were to march into Switzerland they would be met by 100,000 snipers hiding in the mountains. Not an easy thing to beat.

I think if the US and other nations had the same mentality there would be a lot less gun related violence. But we're a bunch of gun toting psychos here in the US, so here's to dreaming *raises his mug of root beer*.

Jammrock

[Gurm]

I'm not really looking to resurrect this as well. However, Vlip - the others are right... Switzerland is a bit different. I was referring to much of the rest of Europe and Scandinavia.

Funny we haven't heard from Jorden on any of this yet, since someone brought up his living situation as an example of government over-regulation and control.

- Gurm

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Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[paulcs]

I've always assumed Switzerland hasn't been bothered by other nations and their wars because of a long tradition of neutrality and matters of geography.

I think it was a strategic error to engage anyone from the Swiss cantons in a debate about democracy or gun ownership. No nation has a longer tradition of continuous republican democracy (or any kind of democracy) and no nation has a higher percentage of per capita gun ownership. Not even the US.

Ironically, the US gun lobby tirelessly cites Switzerland as an example of a utopia of gun ownership and claims all Swiss males are required to own a gun.

I suspect the Swiss have a more developed concept of the citizen-soldier and the nebulous "well regulated militia" than the US currently does, however. As far as I understand it, the Swiss own guns to shoot foreign invaders and not road signs or the neighbor's dog.

Paul
paulcs@flashcom.net

[LAMFDTK]

:Boy do I *not* like the idea of automated fan controls:

Fan Conrol No
Gun Control Yes

The 2nd Amendment is clear as day.

Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns have.

Criminals don't obey the law, nice new laws are a waste of time. Enforce what is on the books now.

[Gurm]

Hey, don't go bringing Ted "Stoli" Kennedy into this...

The Kennedy family has killed more people than Charles Manson. Think about THAT for a few minutes.

- Gurm

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Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[Rags]

It's easy to kill more people than Charles. All you have to do is kill one.