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  • FDS:

    Of course Holly writes "perfectly good American English". She isn't so far gone from New York that she can't recall her own language, now is she? ;-)

    Jorden:

    Here's a 30-second explanation of bussing.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">There used to be "black schools" and "white schools" (I'm oversimplifying on purpose) in urban areas. The racists in charge felt that this was the best way to keep racial problems from arising - just keep the black kids out of the white schools and then nobody will beat them up! Plus it was easier because all the blacks lived in one part of town and the whites in another (again I'm oversimplifying) so they just built extra schools in the black areas. Hence schools were almost exclusively racially segregated.

    The government, in its wisdom, decided to implement a perfectly well-intentioned plan to force desegregation by bussing kids across town. But not only did they bus the black kids to white schools, they bussed (I know bussed isn't really a verb but I'm feeling lazy today) the white kids to black schools as well. All of this was done at random (or supposedly at random), so the parents had NO say at all.

    Now that the neighborhoods are (mostly) desegregated, bussing shouldn't be necessary, right? But it is still in force, making some poor kids sit through an hour-long ride across town to go to school with people they don't know, in a location their parents can't easily get to.

    How do we fix it without allowing the old segregation to creep back in? Good question. one best left for the pundits.</font>
    Other Thoughts:

    [[RANT MODE ON]]

    The problem with the grammAr (notice the capitalized 'A', people) of the average American is largely the fault of the schools. What is taught in schools today is NOT good grammar. It's business grammar. We are taught that bastardized (note the 'z', the use of which I abhor) forms of words are perfectly acceptable. Nobody knows what a case or a tense or a declension is. Nobody can tell you what a participle is. Nobody notices when I dangle them, or when I end the sentence with a preposition - and they can't tell me the difference between those two things.

    Nobody knows how to spell - why bother when a spell checker does it for you? Nobody knows grammar - why bother, when the grammar checker catches that? Nevermind that the grammar checker on Word has worse grammar than a retarded 8-year old howler monkey. Did it ever stop to think that I _KNOW_ I'm using the passive voice? Or that I _KNOW_ I'm using the word "which" instead of the word "that"?

    And the worst part is that Word's grammar rules are based on current grammar BOOKS, most of which have extremely WRONG information.

    This brings me to another point - our entire educational system is flawed. Our children are taught untruths at best, and outright intentional LIES at worst.

    Some of the lies are old lies.

    "The Indians gave corn (which they call Maize) to the Pilgrims at the first Thanksgiving." (or even "Thanksgiving was first celebrated by the Pilgrims...")

    "Columbus discovered America."

    Some are new lies.

    "America bombed Hiroshima because WE ARE BAD PEOPLE! BAD BAD BAD!"

    Some are theories, passed off as gospel truth.

    "We evolved from single celled organisms in the slow steady march of evolution..."

    (Nota bene: Evolution, while perfectly true and valid as a theory, has been shown to work in fits and starts and great flurries of activity influenced more by external forces than by internal random mutation. This has been known for a hundred years now!)

    And some of them are just misprinted facts which the teacher makes the kids memorize. Some science books have the moon listed as half the size of the earth, some have it as a tenth the size of the earth. One book I saw recently had the distance from the sun listed as 50 million miles, one had it listed as 200 million miles. (Both are very wrong...)

    I've given examples in history and science. But we were talking about grammar, correct? Fine, consider this...

    "Sentence Diagramming" is the most common way to teach children English Grammar today. Yet nobody seems able to diagram simple sentences. What's the shortest English sentence? Many people say "I am." (It has a subject and a verb, right?)

    I say "Be." (or "Do." or "Go.") It's a command, making the reader the subject by implication. Others will argue the point about how "I." could be a sentence under certain conditions. Yet none of today's school children will learn about implied subjects. None of them will learn about the various types of phrases. It's just not in the curriculum any more.

    They WILL, however, learn Spanish. It's required in many state school systems now. You have to take Spanish in the first and second grades. This is RIDICULOUS. If you want to make children learn a language, GREAT! I learned several (admittedly two of them are never spoken, but that's another story), and everyone should learn at least one. But to make schoolchildren who don't know how to READ English yet (don't get me started on social promotions) learn Spanish is just counterproductive and stupid.

    My brother came home from second grade (admittedly this was a few years back but things have only gotten worse) and my father said "Jeremiah, what did you learn in Mathematics today?" and my brother said "what's that?". My mom then said "Math!", and my brother said "Oh, ok! With colors or with numbers? We haven't done numbers yet. That's next month."

    Upon examination, the teacher was unable to explain to anyone's satisfaction how you can teach a child mathematics using colors. Counting beans, maybe. Little blocks that get stacked on other little blocks, sure. But "green is bigger than blue" is just plain stupid.

    Yet it's in the school systems. Why? I have no idea.

    Nobody wants their kids to take these standardized tests. Why not? Because they wouldn't pass. They argue that the teachers will just teach for the test and not teach general knowledge. Sorry, folks. That doesn' wash - the test TESTS general knowledge. If your kid can't pass the test they shouldn't graduate.

    As far as I'm concerned, if you can't score a reasonable number on the SAT's (and I'm not sure what that number is any more, since they made the SAT's easier in order to cater to minorities), you shouldn't go to college at all - you should stay in High School where you belong. End of story.

    [[/RANT MODE OFF]]

    Whew!

    - Gurm

    ------------------
    Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.
    The Internet - where men are men, women are men, and teenage girls are FBI agents!

    I'm the least you could do
    If only life were as easy as you
    I'm the least you could do, oh yeah
    If only life were as easy as you
    I would still get screwed

    Comment


    • Change the Tea To Beer and I'm all for it
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      • I know that Gurm is right on this one. I never learned any of this. I definitely don't know what a case or declension is. Spelling and grammer, however, I do pay attention to. I never use the spelling/grammar checker in Word. That's because 1) My spelling and grammar won't get any better that way; 2) I don't trust it. About the use of "z" versus "s," I've noticed that Americans mainly use "z," while non-native speakers use "s." I'm guessing that somewhere along the way, "s" was changed to "z" in American English.

        Yes, the education system is flawed. In fact, one of my teachers even admitted that her goal was to get everyone in the class to pass the standardized tests. However, it depends a lot on the teacher. Another teacher said his goal was to have us learn as much as possible. Most people seem to dislike his class, but I actually like it; I've learned a lot more in his class than I have in any other. About learning Spanish, my Spanish teacher actually remarked, "No wonder you can't speak Spanish, you can't even speak English properly!" That was in reply to "Yo that's mad stupid man" from a kid.

        Comment


        • If anyone </u>really</u> wants to know/remember what a dangling participle is, try this page:

          Guide To Grammar and Style.

          ---------------------------
          Holly

          Comment


          • Sorry a tad off topic

            [Enter glaring stare mode]
            Gurm - bombing of Hiroshima was a bad thing, I would suggest going to the peace museum in Hiroshima to check confirm that. Every country (most) creates its own history to sound better, or modifies and omits other things. Australia has done it, America has done it and so has England. as for the history of Hiroshima a simple fact you might not be aware of, Hiroshima was never and I say never bombed prior to big boy being drooped on it which to me suggests a very deliberate plan. I do not blame All Americans for this and neither do the Japanese but nuclear weapons are BAD BAD BAD, and the people in charge at the time mad that decision. IMO any person (note not country) who uses a nuclear device in that manner is Sadistically to say the least.

            [End Glaring Stare mode]

            On a side line most of my students here studying English have a better grasp of grammatical terms and uses then most of the teachers, however they learn the grammar in school as a second language (albeit a dead one - they don't speak in school) where as we learn English by absorption

            Dan
            Juu nin to iro


            English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleys, knocks them over, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.

            Comment


            • Yes, I think everyone agrees that the use of nuclear weapons is bad, bad, bad.

              That being said, how is it that we know with such utter certainty that the use of nuclear weapons is bad, bad, bad? I really do wonder whether any of us would be here today had it not been for those poor souls who died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. All those who conducted the cold war had the pictures and film and testimonials from survivors and all the incontrovertible evidence of the horror of nuclear war. We were, on balance, lucky that things turned out as they did; that there was only one country with two bombs and no possibility of retaliation in kind at that time. The dropping of those bombs ended the war, and possibly with less loss of life than if an invasion had been necessary. It also affirmed absolutely in each and every one of us that such horror should never be again.

              ------------------
              Kind Regards,

              KvH

              Comment


              • <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sasq:
                Every country (most) creates its own history to sound better, or modifies and omits other things. Australia has done it, America has done it and so has England....
                </font>
                Lets not leave out Japan as far as omitting some of it's own history. How about the "Nanking Massacre" that occurred after the December 1937 invasion of the capital of China? Over 369,000 Chinese civilians and POW's were slaughtered by Japenese troops. Rapes, mutilations, and medical experiments occurred. It wasn't until 1995 Japan finally expresed official remorse over the incident.

                As far as the use of Atomic bombs on Japan, there have been over 50 major books and hundreds of journals published about it. Points of view range from an "immoral diplomacy" to a "glorious military action." Hindsight leads some to the conclusion that it didn't have to happen, and it was clearly for revenge. But that was the decision made by those in power at the time.

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                • Everyone has done something bad. Even you and me. Question is, who is ready to admit that what he did was bad and to remorse for it.


                  ------------------
                  Seth, are you ok ?
                  I`m peachy, Kate. The world is my oyster.
                  Seth, are you ok? I`m peachy Kate. The world is my oyster. - Seth Gecko

                  Comment


                  • Bombing Japan was good from a cost-analysis standpoint. It ended the war with less losses on BOTH sides than if a land invasion had to be undertaken. I know more than one person today who were in platoons set to invade Japan if the bombs were not a success.

                    And yes Hiroshima was chosen for a reason: The size was just right, and the surrounding geography contained the weak blast to amplify the damage.

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                    • Scomp, I did not include reference to Japan rewriting history as I'm not Japanese, I only leave here scraping out a meager living teaching english and studying the language.

                      Gurm, I'll agree to disagree with you on this, history books in Australia at least, suggest that Japan was ready to surrender and the American Military was aware of it. The president may or may not of been aware of it according to the same books.

                      History is written by those in power on all sides of the conflict. I am aware of the reality of WW2 but I can not justify in any way shape or fore the use of nuclear weapons for any reason.

                      and to put things in perspective, I would feel the same no matter which country(s) were involved.

                      George Orwell "1984" 'He who controls the present controls the past, He who controls the past Controls the future'

                      Dan
                      Juu nin to iro


                      English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleys, knocks them over, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.

                      Comment


                      • Another thought... and PLEASE don't get offended by this, but...

                        Anyone who thinks that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were JUST simple peaceful fishing islands is sorely deluded...

                        - Gurm

                        ------------------
                        Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.
                        The Internet - where men are men, women are men, and teenage girls are FBI agents!

                        I'm the least you could do
                        If only life were as easy as you
                        I'm the least you could do, oh yeah
                        If only life were as easy as you
                        I would still get screwed

                        Comment


                        • Yes, but there were many innocent fishermen...

                          Comment


                          • No argument there. And I would have had a hell of a hard time giving that order myself (as, I'm sure, did the president).

                            - Gurm

                            ------------------
                            Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.
                            The Internet - where men are men, women are men, and teenage girls are FBI agents!

                            I'm the least you could do
                            If only life were as easy as you
                            I'm the least you could do, oh yeah
                            If only life were as easy as you
                            I would still get screwed

                            Comment


                            • Grammar check: That would be the President.

                              Oh, sorry, that's another thread.
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                              • No no, that's this thread. I purposely didn't capitalize it because of my lack of respect for the office over the past 8 years. We'll see if someday I do capitalize it again.

                                - Gurm

                                ------------------
                                Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.
                                The Internet - where men are men, women are men, and teenage girls are FBI agents!

                                I'm the least you could do
                                If only life were as easy as you
                                I'm the least you could do, oh yeah
                                If only life were as easy as you
                                I would still get screwed

                                Comment

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