Their they go to there lair

[Jorden]

Maybe when Jeffords becomes an Independent President, Jason?

I've been sitting at the back of the class during the "We bomb Japan" campaign on page 3. I've always learned that the American President used those weapons to keep more Americans & Allied soldiers from being killed in an invasion.

I later learned it might have been a message to the Soviets as well. "Hey guys, we've got something new that can obliterate you in a millisecond".

And no, I haven't got a clue where this thread is going to. I almost asked Ant to rename it to something like "The history thread"

Jord.

[SCompRacer]

"Sigh" is right.

If you want to look at "all" possibilities as to why the Japanese did not surrender prior to the dropping of the atomic bombs, think about the fact that the Potsdam Proclamation included no language of what would happen to their Emperor though it was recommended by some of Truman's advisors. Remember, the Emperor was a god in the eyes of the Japanese.

Yes, the Japanese warrior did not know the word surrender, but even those who sought an end to the war in Japan would have fought to the death to protect him.

After the second bomb was dropped and they finally did surrender, it was under the condition that people of Japan decide what to do with the Emperor.

The fact that this did not appear in the Potsdam Proclamation in the first place fuels debate as to the intention of punishing the Japanese regime responsible for Pearl Harbor, the Bataan death march, the forced labor camps, habitual mistreatment of prisoners of war, and a fifteen-year chain of atrocities stretching from Manchuria to the East Indies.

[KvHagedorn]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Scomp, I did not include reference to Japan rewriting history as I'm not Japanese, I only leave here scraping out a meager living teaching english and studying the language.

Gurm, I'll agree to disagree with you on this, history books in Australia at least, suggest that Japan was ready to surrender and the American Military was aware of it. The president may or may not of been aware of it according to the same books.

History is written by those in power on all sides of the conflict. I am aware of the reality of WW2 but I can not justify in any way shape or fore the use of nuclear weapons for any reason.

and to put things in perspective, I would feel the same no matter which country(s) were involved.

George Orwell "1984" 'He who controls the present controls the past, He who controls the past Controls the future'

Dan </font>

Dan, I find it interesting that you quote the history book that you were taught from as though it were the biblical writ upon which you base your opinions now, and then include this quote from Orwell. Have you not considered that the writers of your history book were biased in their own way? Yes, everyone is biased, no matter who it is. History books are like editorials; they reflect the opinons of the writers. Emotions inevitably enter into any writing which reads well, because they inspire both the reader and the writer. I ask you again why you are so opposed to the use of nuclear weapons? Is it because of what happened at Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Did this evidence of horror sober the world before the nuclear arms race began? Did images of the poor victims haunt a leader before he could push the red button? There are no telling how many lives were SAVED because of Truman's actions.. we only know how many were lost. What was he thinking of when he made the decision? I believe he was thinking of saving the lives of invading troops. If you think the horror of Hiroshima was bad, go back and watch the beginning of Saving Private Ryan. It's all bad. War is a bad thing. Check out how many people died from the time of the Normandy invasion until V-E day. I guarantee you that Truman did. Whether the military had intelligence that Japan was going to surrender is a matter of speculation until your history authors can produce proof. I would not necessarily doubt that that was the case. Another writer of history, John Keegan, suggests that the Kaiser and the Czar tried to stop WWI (not with much conviction, granted), but their generals claimed that the deployment was already underway and they had "shown their hands" so it was too late to stop it. Generals love war.. it gives them purpose and glory, though they sit in bunkers while others die.

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Kind Regards,

KvH

[This message has been edited by KvHagedorn (edited 24 May 2001).]

[SCompRacer]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jorden:

I later learned it might have been a message to the Soviets as well. "Hey guys, we've got something new that can obliterate you in a millisecond".

</font>

Stalin knew about the bomb before Truman officially informed him. Immediately after their meeting, he ordered two tank divisions to clear a forest to expand the Soviet's efforts with their bomb making efforts.

In 1944, Kurchatov (Stalin's bomb maker) had about 100 researchers, engineers, and technicians working on the project. But the Manhattan Project had hundreds of thousands. But the Soviets had thousands of pages of intelligence from the enormous effort abroad. The Soviets detonated their first atomic bomb on August 29th, 1949, one year later than Stalin had requested.



[This message has been edited by SCompRacer (edited 24 May 2001).]

[Joel]

One thing that is often not mentioned is the fact that the Japanese Government was informed beforehand of the bombings, but did nothing to inform the people or evacuate the cities.

Joel

[Gurm]

*sigh*

Ok, let's recap. The president had to make a difficult choice... drag on the war against a fanatical foe who would NOT surrender even when invaded, and lose hundreds of thousands MORE soldiers...

Or drop a bomb or two, that YES wiped out a lot of innocent people but YES also saved lives?

In retrospect, was it bad? Sure. Was it LESS bad than an invasion of Japan (which is what it would have taken to stop the war otherwise)? Also YES.

But to suggest that it was unjustified, uncalled for, unnecessary, and totally bad in a one-sided way is being ignorant of the reality of WW2.

- Gurm

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Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[Sasq]

KvH,
I included the Orwell quote to balance the fact I used references to text books I have read in Australia, I trying to make the point that in America the text books include one thing, in Japan another version and in Australia they include another version. Some or all of us tend to always refer to what we were taught when at school as truth, or what we learn from people we respect and changing our opinions and beliefs when presented with new evidence is one of the hardest things we can attempt to do.
[edit] in direct answer to the 'bomb' I'm opposed to war and mass destruction in general, not only the loss of life but the environmental effects as well, I've sat on the other side of the fence looking in at Maralinga (The Australian test site) where the estimated time before the original inhabitants can return to their home land is somewhere between 20,000~40,000 years. I can't accurately describe the feeling of loss and sadness I felt looking at the site, but that's where a lot of my feeling comes from. [end edit]


Gurm, yes your right, Hiroshima was the major (war)ship building port in Japan. As far as a strategic location they probably should of been bombing the ship yards from the beginning. They also had thousands of Korean slaves 20,000 of which died during the blast, Japan only acknowledged them about 20 years ago

As a general note personally I find it sad innocent lives (both civilian and troops - how many of those soldiers were conscripted??) have to loose their lives for what amounts to who collects the tax and natural resources for any given piece of land.
(sorry that's way to simply put but the pain killers are kicking in and I'm having some trouble putting into words what I want to say - damn slippery stairs)

I just want to reiterate, these are just my opinions or the 'facts' as they have been presented to me over my life, We all have received a 'different' education in a lot of these facts. I also doubt any of us 'laymen' well ever be given ALL of the facts about what really happened. The fact we all have a different perspective and opinions on this I believe is a good thing as it shows we (sorry if this is simply put, I nearly broke my hip last night and the pain killers are good ) have the cognitive ability to make judgments on the information we receive and form our own opinions

Dan

[This message has been edited by Sasq (edited 25 May 2001).]

[Paddy]

Are we still on the spelling/grammar topic?

Both my spelling and my grammar are appalling. Yes, I usually have Word check anything I type, but I blame that on my schooling and my pure bone idleness when I studied English. In this very thread there are many people who can convey their thoughts and ideas much, much more passionately than I. And with their wit and thoughtful phrases they are a joy to read – Holly’s and Gurm’s spring to mind...

Yes, I place lots of ‘...’ when I type and I use hyphens to join sentences because I am too lazy to do it any other way. I really do wish I could write like I should be able to. But at least it’s legible! And I am sure that you can understand the point that I am trying to convey.

As for ‘History’???

pass

[SCompRacer]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Paddy [MU]:
Are we still on the spelling/grammar topic?</font>

I guess????

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Both my spelling and my grammar are appalling. [/B]</font>

I really had not consciously noticed, or ignored it if it was.

What kind of hours do you keep? Get enough rest?

I work third shift so sleep is fleeting for me during the week. Usually done in two shifts, maybe 6-7 hours max. That can mess with your abilities to convey thoughts. Then I switch to a normal cycle on weekends, sometimes not sleeping at all when I get home Saturday morning. The crash is pretty hard about 8PM though.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">but I blame that on my schooling and my pure bone idleness when I studied English. [/B]</font>

Algebra was the area I targeted there in high school. The instructor said "this side of the class is for those who want to learn. This side is for those who don't. All I ask is you don't disturb us, or it's off to the Dean with you."

Cool I thought, I'll just go the the "don't want to" side. Things were not going well learning on my own, so by the second quarter I moved to the "I want to learn" side.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
In this very thread there are many people who can convey their thoughts and ideas much, much more passionately than I. [/B]</font>

Your point always came across to me. IMHO, much of this depends on who you are too. If you are popular and well liked, people will overlook errors. On the other hand, if you are not popular or well liked, things can go critical for you.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">As for ‘History’???

pass [/B]</font>

You mean the stuff your force fed in school? I find it interesting if you get off the beaten path.