Wwiii??

[motub]

NATO is in

I empathize with all of you who have relatives in the service and can't reach them. I may soon share your situation, as the NATO resolution has passed; if the US goes to war to retaliate, we're all going with them. For those of you who don't know, I'm a US citizen who moved to Holland for love's sake, and my boyfriend's brother and sister-in-law are both in the Navy.

I don't look forward to having relatives in harm's way, but I applaud the world's recognition that we must all band together to put a stop to this now. Six Of One, this was clearly intended as an act of war, and NATO's response shows that everyone knows it. This might well be our last chance to demolish the infrastructure of terror, and make it very clear that those of us who live in something approaching peace will not suffer such intimidation techniques.

I too pray that we will be able to discover an appropriate target, because, as moreau says, being wrong would be catastrophic. I mostly hope that a unified front will scare those who turn a blind eye into standing with us all and turning in the terrorists.

[The PIT]

Well said Motub.

[The Rock]

As a Canadian citizen, I'd like to see us stand by our southern neighboors to crush this threat, even if it means use of the most devastating weapons at the worlds disposal. I agree completely with Motub; this must end NOW. It never should have gotten this far to begin with, but blame cannot be laid on anyone except the perps. You just CANNOT be FULLY prepared for such a savage act.

Bart
P.S. My condolences to all of the American people. Your neighboors to the north (whether ya like us or not) share your inredible grief, anger, and shock.

[Dr Mordrid]

To lift things a bit.....

Did you hear of the one survivor who was on the 82nd floor? He rode the rubble all the way down and came out with just two broken legs.

If I were him I'd be in church every damn day.....

Dr. Mordrid

[Liquid Snake]

Hope your brother will be OK Rags.

[Fat Tone]

Well I heard my aunt & cousin are both ok, but by pure chance.
I've been trying to find the words to express the sense of grief we are all feeling, which seems palpable wherever I go, but nothing seem adequate. My heart is with those suffering.

Tony.

[RichL]

Originally posted by Dr Mordrid
To lift things a bit.....

Did you hear of the one survivor who was on the 82nd floor? He rode the rubble all the way down and came out with just two broken legs.

If I were him I'd be in church every damn day.....

Dr. Mordrid

On another board I occasionally visit there was a guy who worked on the 101st floor of tower 2.
They started to evacuate as soon as the plane hit tower 1. He said he stopped on the 70th floor to take a peek at tower 1, just as the second plane hit the tower 2 eight floors above him.
He got out unscathed.

[The PIT]

Some good news. Five fire fighters have been pulled from the wreckage and they're on the way to Hospital.

[Six Of One]

Originally posted by DuRaNgO
NO, this IS an act of war, these people who did this were bred to do this, they didn't just decide to destroy public property

never again, NEVER AGAIN

I don't fancy myself a tireless rebutter but sometimes i have to. Never again, that's what they keep saying in Germany about the Nazis. You know, the Nazis were the ones with inbred attributes.

With the possible exception of some fundamental geneticians i thought it was common knowledge that children are not responsible for the actions of their parents. They may be influenced or educated in some specific way, no doubt, but do you punish the rape victim? What you are propagating is death by proximity, here in Germany it is called "Sippenhaft", do yourself a favor and look up this terminus in a dictionary. I understand the pain, like said before, but i strongly oppose the thought that this gives any right to obliberate innocents.

About the "act of war" issue. While some of you might find this nitpicking or playing by the rules, there are some rather stringent definitions what a state of war is. And all of them include at least 2 sovereign entities. This is the definition found in the NATO charta (which is IMO violated at this point), this is what the UN charta says and in the La Hague conventions on sea and land warfare.

I can't see any other state involved but the US at this point. Granted, i don't know everything and i reserve the option to correct my opinion later. But for the time being there is no other sovereign nation involved. Talking as if this is the case is rhetoric, bad rhetoric. This is a crime. A crime against humanity maybe, although i feel itchy to compare the WTC bombing to the crimes the Nazis conducted.

edit: and Six of one, if you read my other post in the closed thread, you'll see I said EMP bomb not Nuclear, pull your own head out of your a$$ and do some research!

Thread title: He Called us "UNCLEAN"

http://forums.murc.ws/showthread.php?threadid=28510

In this thread Durango said:

We've been pasifistic for too long, for a long time after Hiroshima, we were left alone..............

Dito, Durango, your reference would have some more weight if you actually refer to the right thread. How unrealistic your idea about EMP shocks might be, it is not the occasion i advised you to get your head out of your behind. The above quote from the thread linked above repeats what you posted. I only want to remind you that the bombs the USA dropped on Japan were "dirty" A-Bombs. A-Bombs cause not only immediate damage but also severe long-term effects. Even indirectly hinting that the WTC bombing warrants the utilization of A-Bombs is unacceptable in my book. Therefore the ass-reference. Then, maybe you would think different if your house would be the "splash damage".

As a part of trivia fact: the USA wasn't left alone after Hiroshima. It found itself in a delicate balance of assured mutual destruction with the Soviet Union. The whole situation was called "cold war" and lasted from the early 1950s to 1990 with the collapse of the communist government in Russia.

Regards

EDIT: I just read Motub's post. I tend to disagree about the "war" aspect, wether NATO is in or not. There has been a long and stressing discussion about what "war" entails during the initial efforts to bring Kosovo to peace. Especially the now invoked Article 5 of the NATO charta has been the focus of hot debates, as you all might know. From a political science point of view IMO we are in shallow waters. But I don't doubt that the NATO can find some completely satisfactory way to explain this.
And finally for the protocol: I understand the anger, the frustration and the pain. The complete helplessness and the fear the unpredictability of this bombing causes. I feel it, too, and it is justified to feel that way.
I only oppose strong hot-headed words and actions that are lawfully doubtable, ill conceived and outright disregarding human life on the "other" side. I can't stress that enough: these are people too, they are as much victims as the population of NYC is. Two wrongs don't make it right, so switch on your brain and let it handle things, not your bleeding heart.

EDIT2: Corrected a typo, added "Dito" remark.

[Rags]

I got a phone call last night. My brother is fine.



Rags

[Joel]

The Greatest himself, Muhammad Ali, has issued a statement, following the devastating terrorist attacks this week. His words bear noting, in the aftermath of these cowardly acts;

"I am a Muslim. I am an American. As an American Muslim, I want to express my deep sadness and anguish at the tremendous loss of life that occurred on Tuesday.
Islam is a religion of peace. Islam does not promote terroriem or the killing of people.
I cannot sit by and let the world think that Islam is a killing religion. It hurts me to see what radical people are doing in the name of Islam. These radicals are doing things that God is against. Muslims do not believe in violence.
If the culprits are Muslim, they have twisted the teachings of Islam. Whoever performed, or is behind, the terrorist attacks in the United States of America does not represent Islam. God is not behind assassins. Anyone involved in this must pay for their evil.
I pray that God blesses the people and families of those who were killed, and our great country."

Joel

[Joel]

I like most here was ready to go nuke the bastards from the face of the earth, and really didn't care about the innocent people that might get caught in the crossfire. But I have come to realize that an action of that sort would make us as bad as they are because of the innocent lives that would be lost in such an attack. Yes, we still need to go after the bastards that did this and when they are caught elimate them so they can no longer preach this form of hatred. Oh no!! I can just hear the grasping right about now with the thought. Did I just read this right? Joel, an American, talking about elimating someone to stifle their preachings. Yes you did, for I believe that with freedom of speech also comes a responibility to be accountable for what damage that speech may cause. I furthur believe that an indivdual has a right to live his or her life anyway they want as long as they do not forcefully infringe upon the rights of others to do the same. On Tueday these mad men forcefully infringed upon the the rights of thousands, no millions, of lives worldwide. For this was not just an attack on America. There were alot of foriegn companies and people also in those buildings. As I have read, "This was an attack upon the civilized world.". Those bastards didn't care who died. They didn't care whose lives they infringed upon. But in seeking justice againist these bastards let us be very careful that we do not infringe upon the rights of the innocents. Just remember also that most of the civilians in countries like Iraq and Afganistan have really no idea what is going on. For the most part they are only seeing what their dictator wants them to see.

Joel

[Paddy]

'Bush dedicates $20bn to wage war on terrorism...'

My family are from Belfast. I have grown up experiencing terrorist attacks all my life.
I can remember when there was an armed guard on EVERY corner of our town… You cannot wage a war against terrorists. Terrorists work as a few individuals masked in their population…. Sure someone is to blame here. But all the terrorists that committed this atrocity are already dead. What they did was an act of cowardice that no one can condone. But surely the question that should be asked is why????

I do not believe that you can simply wage a war to get rid of terrorism. Bush’s $20bn ‘war fund’ would be better spent making it impossible for this to ever happen again.

I live in Leicester. There is a very significant Muslim population here. You should see the abuse they are getting from the so called ‘western’ population. Attacking innocent people is not the answer.

I just worry about how many ‘copy-cat’ attacks are going to take place…


Patrick

[The PIT]

Terrorists just a few thoughts

Many of them are brought up from a very young age to hate X country and to hate anyone that helps or is to believed to have helped X country. These poeple are brainwashed by corrupt poeple and are very focused they don't care about how innocent poeple they kill on the way. They just see a target and will go for it again and again. They have no conscience which gives them a great advantage over the civilisised world. At one time technology prevented them easily spreading they poison and lies now is too easy.
The poeple who control these factions don't want solutions becuase they would loose there power and influance therefore you're unlikely to find a solution.
Finally no country in the world should in future harbour or support any terrorist organisation. These are animals that you cannot control, these are dogs that will bite your heal when your back is turned.

[RichL]

Ignorance = Innocence?

From what we hear via the media, the picture painted is that the Middle East is filled with Moslem fanatics frothing at the mouth and dancing in the street at the thought of the deaths of thousands of innocent Americans.
But the majority of the Middle Eastern peoples who have emigrated to the west dont seem that different from the rest of us, really.
So whats the difference?

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, me not being an expert on Middle Eastern culture and politics, but how many of the more militant ME countries, such as Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Libyia etc, have a free press? How many of them have independant TV and Radio? How many of them have investigative journalists who ask their government 'Why?' without fear of getting shot?
I strongly suspect the answer is - None.
They are therefore, completely ignorant of Western culture except what their government chooses to tell them. Saddam Insane is <b>still</b> around ten years after his armed forces where decimated and hard sanctions imposed. Why? Because it seems the Iraqis only get to hear his rhetoric. They probably in all sincerity believe that all Americans are pro-Israeli and eat moslem babies for breakfast.
Does their ignorance absolve them from supporting terrorists? No.
Does this mean America and the western powers should eradicate them totally from the face of the earth? No.
Now dont get me wrong, the terrorists and those who support them whilst knowing what they are should be neutralised.
Those who dance in the street at the thought of dead Americans are more likely horribly misguided.
For example - in Palestine, its been reported that many Palestinians were as upset by the attacks as the rest of us. Perhaps they were the ones with TV sets?

Here in the West we have the luxury of the free press, and much as we despise it at times, it does ensure that we know whats going on, we know enough about our governments to ask questions, we know enough not to always take as gospel what our governments tell us.

If, for example the common Iraqi's knew that the Gulf War was a terrible disaster for Iraq, and that the harsh sanctions imposed were due to their leaders continued defiance, do you suppose you would be that keen to support him? Do you think they would still be dancing in the streets everytime they hear of an attack on America?

We'd probably have had more effect against Saddam if we'd have taken over Iraqi national TV, Radio and Newspapers and run them as an independant concern.