Headline in my local paper today.

[Rags]

Originally posted by Wombat
Matt,
They should be counterattacking. I'm fine with that. I support it. But Doc's comments about rules is what bothers me. There's nothing wrong with obeying rules, even if your opponent doesn't.

That line of thinking leads to "poison their water. After all some of them sent anthrax."

You know that's not what he meant.

What he meant was that since they threw the rulebook out the window when attacking us, they set the tone for the response. Actually there is some history to what this really means, I was watching it on Sky News last week.

Of course we aren't going to kill innocent people if we can help it. BUT we will not sit idle and and play inside the same old box that would normally be there, we have much more breathing room...if that makes any sense.

Rags

[Wombat]

Matt, I just want people to be careful that they say what they mean, lest they start believing what they said, rather than what they meant.

[efty]

Little boxes

Read this

The Muslims are the prisoners. The ppl moving the objects behind them are their leaders. The US are the ones outside of the cave.

What is the best thing to do? Blow up the cave or enlighten them??

[spoogenet]

I said I'd say no more, but oh well.

If somebody punches you and challenges you to a fight, and you just walk away rather than getting embroiled in a fight....are you sympathizing with them? If only everything in life were so black-and-white.

And just because I do not support our actions does not mean I'm not on our side or sympathizing with terrorists, just as others may support our actions and aren't really on our side (think....northern Afghan opposition). Since you seem to have a hard time understanding what it means, I'll explain it as simply as I can:

I do not support our actions. I feel our actions will only cause us more harm in the long run than good. I feel as though we could go about helping our cause much more in other ways than fighting. There is no way to justify the attacks on the US, however I think there exists an explanation for them, an explanation that you have failed to recognize even exists. By ignoring the causes behind the attacks, you will never see the solution to the problem.

Things like what we are doing now in Afghanistan are a significant portion of the reason we were attacked in the first place. Continuing such actions will only solve the problem if you either kill everybody who has such feelings towards us, or strike enough fear in their hearts that they will never launch another attack.

If you want examples of other ways we can support our cause than fighting, well, I never claimed to be a strategist. One of the best things I think anybody has done in this whole deal is to try to cease the assets of terrorist groups. Those kinds of actions can produce results without so many negative side effects.

I do appreciate your move to civility rather than simply trying to insult me. Perhaps there is rational thought afterall. Oh, and it doesn't matter whether we're trying to kill civilians or not, the fact of the matter is that we are, that's what I'm saying. What we intend to do and what we do may differ greatly at times. What we mean and what others think we mean also may differ greatly. Sometimes what matters most is what you actually do and what people think you mean by it.

Just wait a while, and you'll probably see more attacks, even by people claiming they did it in response to our bombing Afghanistan. Then, unfortunately, you may see I'm not so far off on everything as you may think. I at least agree with one thing that you have said:

Bottom line is we will never see eye to eye. You think peace is the only answer....

Thanks for making my point for me....I would like to achieve peace. I don't think bombing them will achieve as much peace in the future as other actions would produce.

That is all. This time I will say no more.

b

[Joel]

I feel as though we could go about helping our cause much more in other ways than fighting.

That would probably be right if we were dealing with civilized people but we are not. If they were they would not have targeted innocent civilians to try to get their point across.

There is no way to justify the attacks on the US, however I think there exists an explanation for them, an explanation that you have failed to recognize even exists.

There is an explaination and some of us do understand it. They follow a perverse religion that says that it is their duty to fight the 'infidels' (non-muslims) and to get them to either convert to Islam (by whatever means) or kill them.

By ignoring the causes behind the attacks, you will never see the solution to the problem.

Some of us do know the causes, as stated above, and there is a solution but unfortunatly none of our leaders have the balls to do it. And no one seems to want to call them on the carpet either in fear of possibally offending someone.

And don't try to start carrying on that it is all about Israel. Israel has as much right, if not more so, to be where they are than anyone else. Israel afterall was there well over 5000 years before that perverted, satanic, a**hole Mohammud showed up and started spreading his preverted satanic religion.

Joel

[Wombat]

Wow Joel, what a prick thing to say.

And don't try to start carrying on that it is all about Israel. Israel has as much right, if not more so, to be where they are than anyone else. Israel afterall was there well over 5000 years before that perverted, satanic, a**hole Mohammud showed up and started spreading his preverted satanic religion.

You've got a lot of balls to call someone else's Prophet a Satanic ****ole. And you wonder why Western Christians are so unliked? Not to mention you're absolutely incorrect. Muslims believe in the Bible too.

****ing bigot. How dare you post such crap in a forum you're supposed to moderate.

Jews have no more right to that land than the Arabs. They (Jewish tribes) have ruled that land for less than 2000 of the last 5000+ years.

[efty]

Joel grow up

The way I see it you are no better than the people you call uncivilized!!!

Your point of view does not differ from theirs. You are a satanist in their eyes too.

Oh, Jews may have the right to be there, but they have no right to deny palestinians their freedomn and independence.

[KvHagedorn]

****ing bigot. How dare you post such crap in a forum you're supposed to moderate.

There you go again.. if someone doesn't strictly follow the mind controlling doctrine of political correctness, they need to be silenced. Let me tell you something, Rob.. if you weren't so damned scared of the truth, you wouldn't constantly keep trying to shut people up. Just like Hillary tried to stop the publication of Barbara Olson's book after she was killed by that scum who crashed the plane into the Pentagon. Joel has a lot of guts to go against the politically correct Gestapo which you Sieg Heil to every day. Do you really think Rob and Hillary have a patent on "the right way to think"? What are you going to do, Rob, put us in mental institutions for not toeing the line and thinking as you dictate? That's what the Soviets did.

That's what the politically correct gang is doing now.. look at what the ACLU said about "God Bless America".. they called it "HATE SPEECH".. this is the "big lie" that Orwell warned us about. Apparently the left wing wants us all to renounce God and worship Thomas Jefferson as the Soviets worshipped Lenin.

The militant islamic zealots in Iran had the exact same reaction to Salman Rushdie saying exactly what Joel just did. You gonna put a bounty on Joel's head just like they did with Rushdie?

[Wombat]

**** you too, KvH.

Gestapo which you Sieg Heil

That's complete shit. How could <B>you</B> of all people equate me to the Nazis after all your "camel-stealing culture" remarks?

The rest of your post? You're just not worth my time anymore.

[The PIT]

Well while some people suck up to Bin Laden and his croonies some of his followers had been busy murdering innocent catholics in a church in Pakistan.

[Joel]

****ing bigot. How dare you post such crap in a forum you're supposed to moderate.

Oh so because I am moderator I'm not entitled to my opinion???
It is my opinion afterall and the last time I looked I was still entitled to speak it according to the US Constitution. Yes this may be an internationational forum but we each still have the right to express our own opinions. That is until Islamic law controls you. You, spoognet, and Redred, just to name a few have been allowed to express your views. Why can't I???

Jews have no more right to that land than the Arabs. They (Jewish tribes) have ruled that land for less than 2000 of the last 5000+ years.

Yeah you're right I forgot to subtract the past 1400 years after the land was forcefully taken from them by the armies of Mohammud. Plus I never said they ruled the land, only that they have been there longer overall.

Oh, Jews may have the right to be there, but they have no right to deny palestinians their freedomn and independence.

So that gives them the right to go around killing innocent people? Are you saying that Isreal does not have the right to defend itself? If you do then you are saying that the US does not have a right to defend itself or to help the rest of the world defend itself from these a**holes. BTW The palestinians do have an independent state. It's called Jorden!!! Read up on your histroy form the later 1940's.

You've got a lot of balls to call someone else's Prophet a Satanic ****ole.

That's true, because according to Islamic law I should be put to death for what I just said. Christian on the other hand would just say that I am a lost soul and would pray for me. Boy am I glad I live in a country, that is for now, that allows me the right too say what I will.

Muslims believe in the Bible too.

If that is the case then why do they not believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God instead of just another prophet?? Why do they say that we worship multiple Gods because we believe in the Trinity which is expressed many times in the Bible?? Why do they not believe that Jesus Christ was crucified on the cross and then rose again on the thrid day??? Why do they then not following the Ten Commandments?? Why do they not also use the Bible in their worship services???

I would ask you to look at the following websites but you would just call them bigoted and racist and close your mind to the truth.

http://www.answering-islam.org/

http://www.islamreview.com/

http://debate.org.uk/

http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/

Well while some people suck up to Bin Laden and his croonies some of his followers had been busy murdering innocent catholics in a church in Pakistan.

That's the way they are. Just murder anyone who does not believe the way they do.

Joel

[efty]

Setting an example

Joel since you are moderator here, you should set an example to the rest of ppl by not swearing and being restrained. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion as everyone else, but try to do it properly.

The fact that the palestinians have an independed state, Jordan, does not give any right to Israel to hold their land and deny the freedomn of so many ppl. However, they do not have the right to go around bombing the US, which they did not. None of the hijakcers were palestinians. Not all muslims are evil. Religion can be used and interpeted in many ways. The christinas masacred so many nations during the crusades. The holy inquisition was going around subjecting innocent ppl, who may had progressive ideas, to torture.

[Joel]

Joel since you are moderator here, you should set an example to the rest of ppl by not swearing and being restrained. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion as everyone else, but try to do it properly.

Maybe I should have said something more like this then?

Israel afterall was there well over 5000 years before Mohammud showed up and started spreading his, what I feel is preverted and satanic, religion by the blade of the sword, killing anyone who insulted him or the Islam religion or would not convert.

I'm not the one making this into a religious issue, I'm just pointing out some things with that religion that I don't feel is right. You have to realize that this is not a relgion in the sense of the way Christianity and Judism is practiced. Islam is a way of life which is governed by their holy books.

Here's a discussion thread I think you would find interesting if you are willing to take the time.

http://forums.crosswalk.com/webx?128@251.mlLvajQqHNE^259384@.ee9c6b4

The fact that the palestinians have an independed state, Jordan, does not give any right to Israel to hold their land and deny the freedomn of so many ppl.

You know that is a very complicated issue over there and there is always two side to the story but sometimes our liberal news medias don't always show that. But even though IMO, that does not give them anymore rights to go around deliberate killing innocent civilians than the terrorist had on attacking the World Trade Center.

Not all muslims are evil. Religion can be used and interpeted in many ways.

I agree and the the same thing can be said of the Christians and Jews. But I'm not the one that started making a religious issue out of this.

The christinas masacred so many nations during the crusades.

You're right that did occur and there is not a Christian alive that should deny that, but what can be said is that what happened during the crusades is not supported in the Bible nor was it supported by the church. The main reason that the Christian religion has been so closely assiociated with the crusades is because it was the church at that time that asked the armies to go and defend the Christians that were been massacred by the thousands at the hands of the advancing Muslim armies. It was the decision of the army commanders to take it beyond that. But even though, Christians have accepted the responsibility for them, has openly condemned them and has even apoligized for them.

BTW:

Elsewhere in Pakistan, police said at least 16 people were killed and at least five hurt in the southern town of Behawalpur when unidentified gunmen sprayed a Christian church with gunfire. Suspicion fell on a fundamentalist Muslim group, but it was not known if there was any connection between the attack and the American air campaign.

To me it doesn't matter if it is connected or not, this is wrong.

Believe me I want peace as much as the next guy but I don't see that happening anytime soon until prople can learn to live by two basic rule.

1) Do to others what you would have them do to you.

2) Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

Joel

[impact]

Hey Wombat, do you really want to sink to KvH's level and completely ruin this place? I don't think so. Just ignore him untill he's calmed down again.

[spoogenet]

1) ...and bomb them....

2) ...and bomb them....

b