Time for crow pie!

[KeiFront]

Found an interesting article on the International Herald Tribune. http://www.iht.com/articles/42521.html

[Joel]

Some of the numbers in that article don't surprise me at all. In alot or foriegn countries, especially Islamic states, what the people see is controled by the governments, and they try to paint the worst picture of the US and how it is causing all their problems that they can. Helps to divert the people from the real culprits of their problems, their own governments.

Joel

PS Let's watch the language, the name calling, and the patronizing. Thank You.

[Rags]

Originally posted by KeiFront
Found an interesting article on the International Herald Tribune. http://www.iht.com/articles/42521.html

What I found interesting, is it didn't give any references as to how the poll was conducted. How were these people contacted? Were the questions in the poll exact? How was it translated?

Nice piece of propoganda.

Rags

[RedRed]

Rags.

http://www.psra.com/

This is the URL for the Princeton group.

http://www.psra.com/Page4.Htm
This is the URL to the list of references (including the World Health Organisation, New York University Medical Center, U.S. Agency for International Development,U.S. Information Agency.

I think we can surmise that it a fairly well researched report...

It
isn't a peice of propoganda, I would hazzard it is a fairly accurate reflection of how the US is percieved... Even Madaline Albright aknowleged it.

I said I would not debate these issues any further with you, but I cant understand why you can never conciede that there mght be an opinion other than your own, which might be valid.

PS for a short resume of the reasons behind the Granada incident, check out:

http://www.historyguy.com/Grenada.html

The Grenada incident is MUCH more complicated than you make out... This nearly caused a major incident here, as Ronald Reagan asked Margaret Thatcher if he should interviene (Grenada was part of the Commonwealth, so has observing form), and she said no, that it was a Commonwealth issue. The Forien secretry here, Geoffry Howe, went on air the day before the attack, saying he had assurances that there would be no assault. (it is in his memoirs, he was the longest serving cabinet minister under Thatcher). When it did happen, the UK considered asking the US to remove the Perssing Missiles form Greenham, it was that serious!


with regards to panama:

http://www.oneworld.org/ips2/july99/17_44_071.html

http://www.encyclopedia.com/printablenew/33858.html

the reason that the US invaded was nothing to do with the unfortunate deaths of the americans on the canal, not because the presedent was a drug baron.
Under General Manuel Noriega, who the US had installed to protect their intrests, the Pannemanian Authourities threatened to retake control of the cannal, abandoning the 1904 treaty.

Ritter (Panamainian Foreign Affairs minister) pointed out that Washington's military presence, which dates back to 1904, ''has been historically linked to the application of U.S. strategy in the region and not to protecting the canal nor the security of our borders, much less the safety of Panama.''

Far more that 14 americans have been killed by other powers (Colombian government is an example). The US removed Noriega because of the cannal, prime american interest. Secondly because Gen. Noreaga was involved in sending millitary secrets to Cuba.

finally, someone in an earlier thread asked for the wars that the US had been directly involved in.... there is a link to the list....

http://www.historyguy.com/american_m...y_history.html

[Rags]

Originally posted by RedRed
Rags.

http://www.psra.com/

This is the URL for the Princeton group.

http://www.psra.com/Page4.Htm
This is the URL to the list of references (including the World Health Organisation, New York University Medical Center, U.S. Agency for International Development,U.S. Information Agency.

I think we can surmise that it a fairly well researched report...

It
isn't a peice of propoganda, I would hazzard it is a fairly accurate reflection of how the US is percieved... Even Madaline Albright aknowleged it.

I said I would not debate these issues any further with you, but I cant understand why you can never conciede that there mght be an opinion other than your own, which might be valid.

PS for a short resume of the reasons behind the Granada incident, check out:

http://www.historyguy.com/Grenada.html

The Grenada incident is MUCH more complicated than you make out... This nearly caused a major incident here, as Ronald Reagan asked Margaret Thatcher if he should interviene (Grenada was part of the Commonwealth, so has observing form), and she said no, that it was a Commonwealth issue. The Forien secretry here, Geoffry Howe, went on air the day before the attack, saying he had assurances that there would be no assault. (it is in his memoirs, he was the longest serving cabinet minister under Thatcher). When it did happen, the UK considered asking the US to remove the Perssing Missiles form Greenham, it was that serious!


with regards to panama:

http://www.oneworld.org/ips2/july99/17_44_071.html

http://www.encyclopedia.com/printablenew/33858.html

the reason that the US invaded was nothing to do with the unfortunate deaths of the americans on the canal, not because the presedent was a drug baron.
Under General Manuel Noriega, who the US had installed to protect their intrests, the Pannemanian Authourities threatened to retake control of the cannal, abandoning the 1904 treaty.



Far more that 14 americans have been killed by other powers (Colombian government is an example). The US removed Noriega because of the cannal, prime american interest. Secondly because Gen. Noreaga was involved in sending millitary secrets to Cuba.

finally, someone in an earlier thread asked for the wars that the US had been directly involved in.... there is a link to the list....

http://www.historyguy.com/american_m...y_history.html

Red, I thought you were done with this thread..??

At any rate, I concede there are many differing opinions. It's my intent to get people like you to actually think about things before spewing off.

I will take a look at the links there, but from the links you gave, it shows nothing about how this poll was conducted. It doesn't tell me the question that was asked, it doesn't tell me how it was translated into the other country's native languages, it doesn't say how the poll was conducted, if it was a voluntary poll, if it was a telephone poll, how many were contacted for the poll, how many declined to participate, or even the sample size.

You see, I am a person with a mathematical background, and have quite a solid understanding of statistics and how they are made, and what things can influence a stat. Now, tell me how this is a valid poll when they don't at least disclose the poll details?

Rags

[Rags]

But I wouldn't expect you to actually discuss anything or actually debate and think about the discussion. It is much easier to call someone a bully and run out.

BTW, I am not a bully and I am NOT conservative or right wing.

Rags

[KRSESQ]

RedRed:

Unfortunately, your links regarding Grenada and Panama and U.S. history in general don't really provide any new or startling or even mildly controvercial material. All pretty much common knowledge.

Just how does it happen that eliminating a forcibly installed, militaristic, hard-line Marxist, pro-Cuba regime and replacing it with a friendlier, more open, pro-U.S. government is a bad thing?

Referring to the Historyguy link, It would appear that America's European allies ALWAYS seem to express disapproval of ALL of America's actions, EVERYWHERE!

Still searching for links to Grenadan public opinion regarding the invasion.

Kevin

[mdhome]

RedRed

If you want to listen to reasoned American debates then go elsewhere; this site isnt for you. All I find here is blind acceptance; irrespective of what they say or how well reasoned their arguments. You are also up against people who believe that they have the moral high ground. The British had the same superiority attitiude 100 years ago and like the US now they also had the means to bully people. It was called GunBoat diplomacy. By and large they also had the same motives; self interest with just the occassional humanitarian aspects thrown in for good will.

For the Americans on this site who dont understand the reactions of Europeans to US policy it can be summarized quite easily..

We (Europe) do not have the military means to go around the world and do as we please, therefor we have to conduct ourselves differently. i.e. we have to prevail by other means. This is beginning to show in our underlying psyche. I'm not sayng that given the power we would do anything differently but these are the realities.

For the Europeans who dont understand the US its quite simple.

The US has the big stick and its engrained in their psyche. It gives them the confidence and the power to do as they will and some times they do.


The folly of all this is that we can look back 100 years at the way the British empire bahaved and say that some they did some things badly. In 50 - 100 years time will we will probably say the same about the US simply because there are so many simularities.

Ultimately we must make ALL politicians of this world accountable for their policies and actions and it must be done through the UN.

A thought has just occurred to me. I wonder if the new European rapid reaction force is going to be used for self interest or for humanitarian reasons.

regards MD

[Joel]

self interest with just the occassional humanitarian aspects thrown in for good will.

That is just a reflection of how all of us are, world wide. When was the last time that you did something for purely selfless reasons, without expecting something in return either physically or spirituality?? (this is not directed at mdhome personally but anyone reading this)

The folly of all this is that we can look back 100 years at the way the British empire bahaved and say that some they did some things badly.

Yeah it is amazing how some people forget about their own historty.

Ultimately we must make ALL politicians of this world accountable for their policies and actions and it must be done through the UN.

When the ruling body of the UN becomes democratically elected instead of self-appointmented then maybe they should have the ultimate say. Right now it doesn't even have to be accountable for it's own actions.

I'm sorry that the Europeans have such a low opinion of the US but with the liberal media we have today throughout the world it's easy to understand. Like Rags basically said we in the US tend to take everything the news media devels out with a grain of salt.

Joel

[Rags]

If you want to listen to reasoned American debates then go elsewhere; this site isnt for you.

I agree, for the most part it's because of people like you. You see an American defending something about their country and your only argument is to call it blind faith, arrogance, ignorance, or all of the above. How nice.

All I find here is blind acceptance;

Hot damn, didn't I just predict that? Come on, you are too easy.

irrespective of what they say or how well reasoned their arguments.

Yeah, you wouldn't want to listen to well reasoned arguments. Obviously the folly in what you just said eludes you.

You are also up against people who believe that they have the moral high ground.

Me? High moral ground? You are kidding. I never claimed such a thing. It's something you are sprinkling into what you read. Now if you are talking about the US, I KNOW our gov't isn't perfect. But you know what? I believe we have pretty damned good people here in the US, and most of them aren't the most moral in the world. But I guarantee you one thing, they are good people. Take your european snob attitude and shove it.

The British had the same superiority attitiude 100 years ago

Yep, and so did France. Looks like things have really changed.

and like the US now they also had the means to bully people.

What? OH NO!! We have a way to defend ourselves and our allies!!! Watch out everyone....errmm...who....uhhh...attacks us. Garsh, hyuck.

It was called GunBoat diplomacy

Whoa. Nice pretty word. Anytime anyone sends over their military this is the claim. Now isn't it a surprise it's being used now? Here's a sad little thing about our world. It's inhabited by HUMANS. As such, sometime HUMANS need a little forced incentive to play nice. Do diplomats usually work? Yes, when the country is in some way controlled by it's citizens. Most of the time. But when it's run by the military or a dictatorship, diplomatic means are used but don't seem to work. Remember Iraq? He shrugged off our diplomats, in fact he tried to slay them. Bin laden? He bombed them. The taliban? They were just too stupid to see that what we wanted was so very simple. Grenada? We were shrugged off. Noriega? Shrugged off.

By and large they also had the same motives;

Anytime a country defends itself domestically or abroad, it's for self interest.

self interest with just the occassional humanitarian aspects thrown in for good will.

Sure. We just like to kill people who don't look like us. We just don't like them brown people. Get over it, sure we make mistakes, and we have had some really stupid moves, but do you really think we are evil?

For the Americans on this site who dont understand the reactions of Europeans to US policy it can be summarized quite easily..

Oh boy, the diplomat speaks!!! I can't wait.

We (Europe) do not have the military means to go around the world and do as we please, therefor we have to conduct ourselves differently. i.e. we have to prevail by other means. This is beginning to show in our underlying psyche. I'm not sayng that given the power we would do anything differently but these are the realities.

Actually you guys are pretty damned intimidating to MOST other militaries. You don't kid yourself, you are only second to maybe china after the US.

For the Europeans who dont understand the US its quite simple.

Yes, we are quite simple folk. Me tarzan, you jane. I king of jungle, now let me go swing from some trees.

The US has the big stick and its engrained in their psyche. It gives them the confidence and the power to do as they will and some times they do.

Actually you are right in a way. We have the means to accomplish a lot of things and sometimes we are asked a thousand different ways to do something. And no matter how we do it, we are going to be criticized. Ya know what? I wish there weren't wars. I wish we didn't ever have to fight. But when there are people in the world who are willing to kill themselves to kill you, I believe we should kill them before they kill us. Wait, there's that big stick again.

The folly of all this is that we can look back 100 years at the way the British empire bahaved and say that some they did some things badly. In 50 - 100 years time will we will probably say the same about the US simply because there are so many simularities.

Every world power has folly. To folly is human. But instead of actually discussing things and making point on point arguments, it's just so easy to toss a blanket statement and call out propoganda and hate breeding cliches like "Big stick" "gun boat diplomacy" etc.

Ultimately we must make ALL politicians of this world accountable for their policies and actions and it must be done through the UN.

I agree. EXCEPT when the UN decides you cannot defend yourself through offensive means. If someone is attacking us, and we want to retaliate, and the UN says no. I say screw the UN, we have the ultimate right to defend ourselves. Now, the UN has yet to say otherwise, but it's always a possibility.
But, yes we do need accountability.

Try debating points instead of trying to guess where we are coming from or what we are thinking. You know, be more open minded about people. You are such a hypocrite for coming here saying we are self serving, arrogant, and inhumane. Yet look in your own back yard in the European community and right next door to your neighbors. Hell you don't even make an attempt to see where we are coming from or even try to look at simple facts or even debate and correct facts. You just simply have a "blind accpetance" that the US is evil, self serving, and the citizens just say yeah okay to everything.

Nevermind, don't do that. I wouldn't want a little free thinking and intelligent discussion to disrupt your little world.

Rags

PS Oh no, am I a bully because I responded to each of your points?

[mdhome]

Rags, unfortunately the written word isnt my forte and I dont always come across as well as I should but explain to me where in my email I deserved your attack.
Anyhow a couple of points from my post.
1) Yes, if I want to listen to Americans discuss the world I dont generally come here simply because this site is too hostile. How can I reason when the usual response is to be attacked.
2) Yes the US wields a big stick and uses it when it wants.
3) yes Europe did exactly the same thing 50-100 years ago.
4) Yes Europe made mistake.
5) Yes the US makes mistakes.
6) Yes the europeans dont have the power to go anywhere and do what they want. If they did they might act like the US does.
7) If you want to see where we are going then learn lessons from the past.
8) I cant find anywhere in the post where I insinuated that the US kills aimlessly because of a persons skin. PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE.
9) Where have I ever decried the American people over the Europeans. I respect America for the values that she holds great. Attacking the US isnt a past time of mine.
10) I have a good knowledge of British history and the problems we caused. At the time the British thought that they were justified in what they were doing. Ring any bells.

A couple of new personal points. My country pays out £20 billion per year and employs over 250,000 people to defend this country. The level of proffessionalism in the British armed forces is generally unsurpassed and when we go into battle everyone takes notice. Including the US military. You dont ******* defend us, we can do that ourselves.


Another issue, I dont often post on these types of topical issues in the soap box and you dont know me well enough to predict my response. I on the other hand tend to read more than I write and have constantly listened to your replies to other peoples concerns about US actions. As such your answer to my previous post WAS predicable.


ps, concerning issue 8. There was a program on tv recently about racial discrimination in some of the southern states of the US. It seems that until recently in some parts of the US being black and trying to vote was a good enough reason to be killed. I wonder what values that extols in a society.

A final point is a question that I have asked here before and to which I still have not got a good enough answer and until I get a decent answer all your words will sound like hypocracy. Not only that but I would like you Rags to personally explain it to me. Why is it that your country has only just made it illegal for its citizens to fund the IRA. 1000s of British and Irish people died.. If you cant understand some of the UK's resentment to the US then this might go someways towards explaining it.


regards MD

[The PIT]

Originally posted by mdhome
[B] Why is it that your country has only just made it illegal for its citizens to fund the IRA. 1000s of British and Irish people died
regards MD

While we're on about the IRA why hasn't our Government put any preasure the loyalist terrorists to give up their arms as well. I would have liked to see a equal preasure applied to both sides.

[mdhome]

Originally posted by The PIT


While we're on about the IRA why hasn't our Government put any preasure the loyalist terrorists to give up their arms as well. I would have liked to see a equal preasure applied to both sides.

I dont have an answer for that one but maybe its because the government still dont trust the IRA and feel that the loyalists will act as a some kind of balance. But then I dont understand politics either cus I still cant fathom out why the government allowed convicted murders (nee freedom fighters) to be released from jail.
All in all, both sides are as bad as each other but then they generally did not export their terrorism outside of the UK.

You also know how the papers in the UK would react if it was found that her citizens were actively sponsoring terrorism in the US. In the recent cases where the news papers have picked up on some *mad mullah* sprouting off their hatred and anger against the west (US) they have had their faces plastered on the front page and been villified. I'm not saying the papers do this for altruistic reasons but they do it all the same.
I'm also sure that other innocent peoples of this world have been or are on the receiving end of weapons provided by the UK (nee government). We also have to stand up and openly admit to ourselves that it doesnt matter whether we arm terrorists or *friendly* governments that act against their own populace that this is state sponsored terrorism. Only the innocents suffer. Not only that but this type of behaviour is reprehensible to the average person and should not be tolerated of any government. Unfortunately indifference seems to be a UK trait and the government does what it wants with little or no accountability. Make no mistake we are not the only English speaking country in the western world that has similar policies.
It doesnt matter whether you are elected or not power isnt yours to betray and thats why I believe that the real power must ultimately lie with the UN.

regards MD

ps Sorry if I annoyed our American friends (Rags and Joel). Its not intentional. Its just that I still see mistakes being made for all the wrong reasons.

[Rags]

Rags, unfortunately the written word isnt my forte and I dont always come across as well as I should but explain to me where in my email I deserved your attack.

Show me where I have attacked you. Attacking and challenging IDEAS is not attacking a person, how hard is that to understand?

Anyhow a couple of points from my post.
1) Yes, if I want to listen to Americans discuss the world I dont generally come here simply because this site is too hostile. How can I reason when the usual response is to be attacked.

The only times I have seen personal attacks over issues like this is when people come storming in calling us Ignorant Americans, Stupid Americans, Arrogant Americans, etc. Oh, and right after the 9/11/01 attack, we had some pretty edgy responses as well...but that is to be understood.

2) Yes the US wields a big stick and uses it when it wants.

Yep, sometimes we have to. Sometimes we use when we shouldn't. Hindsight is always 20/20 and it's ALWAYS easier being the critic rather than the critiqued.

3) yes Europe did exactly the same thing 50-100 years ago.

Not exactly the same thing, because the world is a completely different place now than it was over a 100 years ago.

4) Yes Europe made mistake.

I agree, where have I said any different?

5) Yes the US makes mistakes.

Again, where have I said any different?

6) Yes the europeans dont have the power to go anywhere and do what they want. If they did they might act like the US does.

They might be EXPECTED to do that, much like the US is looked to be a babysitter of those who don't play nice. But even babysitters make mistakes and cannot foretell the future.

7) If you want to see where we are going then learn lessons from the past.

There are lessons to be learned from the past, but the similarities between the british empire and the US today aren't that striking.

8) I cant find anywhere in the post where I insinuated that the US kills aimlessly because of a persons skin. PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE.

I was making that statement out of the air, and it wasn't referring to color of skin, it was referring to people who think differently than we do. My point is that we don't just go and take military action for no reason, and I am saying sometimes those reasons aren't the evil plots you would like to believe they are.

9) Where have I ever decried the American people over the Europeans. I respect America for the values that she holds great. Attacking the US isnt a past time of mine.

Fair enough, but sometimes you say some things that have implications, I am just debating. It's something I like to do, and it's very educational at the same time. Sometimes I play the devil's advocate just to get people to think. Now, statements like blind acceptance is not exactly endearing. I am not a sheep and I am not ignorant. I am very educated and very informed. I take exception to being called blind and acceptant.

10) I have a good knowledge of British history and the problems we caused. At the time the British thought that they were justified in what they were doing. Ring any bells.

The major difference is how the british empire was run. It was not a democracy and it was not power enabled by the people. There in lies the major problem.

A couple of new personal points. My country pays out £20 billion per year and employs over 250,000 people to defend this country. The level of proffessionalism in the British armed forces is generally unsurpassed and when we go into battle everyone takes notice. Including the US military. You dont ******* defend us, we can do that ourselves.

I gave you big props to your military. I also give great props to your leaders atm. You guys are a class act and deserve attention.

Another issue, I dont often post on these types of topical issues in the soap box and you dont know me well enough to predict my response.

You have said nearly the same thing several other times and I have a very good memory for the most part. Your response was more than predictable. So there

I read more of your replies on these issues than I have written. You have spoken your word, and it's not a matter of I on the other hand tend to read more than I write and have constantly listened to your replies to other peoples concerns about US actions. As such your answer to my previous post WAS predicable.

It still doesn't mean you know what I believe to be right or just. You don't know me or have nary an idea of what my values are.

ps, concerning issue 8. There was a program on tv recently about racial discrimination in some of the southern states of the US. It seems that until recently in some parts of the US being black and trying to vote was a good enough reason to be killed. I wonder what values that extols in a society.

Same here, I wonder the same thing. I don't think racism is a nice thing either. But what does that have to do with my statement of attacking brown people?

A final point is a question that I have asked here before and to which I still have not got a good enough answer and until I get a decent answer all your words will sound like hypocracy. Not only that but I would like you Rags to personally explain it to me. Why is it that your country has only just made it illegal for its citizens to fund the IRA. 1000s of British and Irish people died..

I don't have an answer to that. All I can surmise that maybe now the means to track these things are easier. Either that or we live and learn by our mistakes.
EDIT: Oh, and how would this be hypocrisy on my part?

If you cant understand some of the UK's resentment to the US then this might go someways towards explaining it.

I can understand some of the issues you have with the US gov't, but I cannot understand any resentment at all towards the US. There is a difference you know. Sometimes you get all muddled up and blanket some of the particular issues you have with our gov't and then call it our country or our society. There is a great latency between public values and the policies they dictate. Also I think much of the resentment comes from the fact that it's unnerving to know and see displayed that we can be a force, are major consumers, and do have influence. But I do realize we have many issues, but what that has to do with defending our country against people who target our civilians I will never know.


Rags

[Joel]

Sorry if I annoyed our American friends (Rags and Joel).

You didn't annoy me, I was just pointing out why I feel the UN should not be the ultimate authority at this time.

Plus I now understand why you have a chip on your shoulder after reading the following.

A final point is a question that I have asked here before and to which I still have not got a good enough answer and until I get a decent answer all your words will sound like hypocracy. Not only that but I would like you Rags to personally explain it to me. Why is it that your country has only just made it illegal for its citizens to fund the IRA. 1000s of British and Irish people died.. If you cant understand some of the UK's resentment to the US then this might go someways towards explaining it.

Plus as Rags said when you are number one you're damned if do and damned if you don't.

Joel