Time for crow pie!

[Sasq]

thoughts from a Gaijin

Well its time for me to go find my asbestos underwear again.

Being an English teacher in Japan allows me to meet many people from around the world and all of us here are ‘Gaikokujin’ An interesting thing I have learnt from people I’ve met is most of our attitudes change about our own country and other countries after spending time overseas and submersed in a different culture.
What I’m writing here seems to be the general opinion of people I speak to, while I agree with a lot of it, I don’t neccisarily agree with it all and I just thought I’d share what I have learnt of general opinions from people I have met here.

The people that aren’t too overcome with homesickness usually change from ‘My Country is the best country’ to ‘Every country has good points and bad points’.
One of the things I have learnt from different Non-US people is a lot of our fear/distrust for the US comes from the cold war, in which the non-Russian and non-US of us sat back and watched 2 big guys threatening each other not only with each others extermination but ours as well. For most of us the US was our ally and we came down on the US’s side but that didn’t really make any of us less nervous.

Of the things I’ve learnt from US citizens here, a lot come overseas for the first time to discover they are treated badly and usually they become angry. Some return home, others try to learn why? The general consensus from the Americans I know is US foreign policy when viewed from American soil seems fair and just, however when viewed from the perspective of a different culture is somewhat overbearing and does appear to be ‘we’re right your wrong, we’re bigger so live with it’

Each culture is different and if we try to impose our value system on an ‘alien’ culture sometimes it does more harm then good – for an example just look at what Australia did to the Aboriginal culture (Yes all of our Histories are checkerd and Australia’s hands are no cleaner then anyone else’s)

I do know of a few Americans here who have a Canadian flag sewn onto their backpack as it makes travel abroad much more pleasant.

As I said before, this is just a generalization from people I have spoken to here and it is only their and my perceptions, the reasons for fear and distrust may or may not be based in fact, but it just how things are perceived by many of the people I have spoken to, also none of us tend to hold grudges against individual people most distrust is aimed at our collective politicians – when can we start building them like simcity

Back off to my asbestos Igloo

Dan

PS Joel, ...Dammed if you do, dammed if you don’t… true, also same goes for me and my soon to be wife

[mdhome]

Originally posted by Joel

Plus as Rags said when you are number one you're damned if do and damned if you don't.

Joel

Just to let you know that I have always felt that the US does an admirable job of being the worlds policeman. I know its not easy and I dont always agree with US policies but the world would be a far worst place without them. Its something my country lost the power to do early last century.

Have a merry xmas everyone


regards MD

[RedRed]

It was called GunBoat diplomacy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Whoa. Nice pretty word. Anytime anyone sends over their military this is the claim

Rags,
I gotta point out to you here, the British Empire coined the term Gun Boat Diplomacy. The Navy was the mainstay and the expression of power during the days of Empire. If there was an area giving trouble, send a dreadnaught or flotilla or whatever was despatched. How do you think they were able to extend across the globe and colout the map pink? It wasnt just the Industrial Revolution, you know!

You said:
Show me where I have attacked you. Attacking and challenging IDEAS is not attacking a person, how hard is that to understand?

oh! read the earlier parts of this post! It certainly felt like you were attacking a person! (ME!) I wont use the language and quote you!

You said:
The only times I have seen personal attacks over issues like this is when people come storming in calling us Ignorant Americans, Stupid Americans, Arrogant Americans, etc.

I have NEVER called americans Ignorant, Stupid nor Arrogant, yet have been attacked (see earlier in this post).

Rags
I think that this is the main areas were we differ,
1
Many Europeans and Americans see that ANY war, providing it is won, is a commitment of resources, and the risking of peoples lives, to improve the lot of the country willing to sacrafice those lives. We DON'T believe that there is ANY altruistic intentions in ANY action (grenada and panama were the examples I quoted). While these actions do no harm to Europe, then most of europe wont have a problem.

The problem that we (in Europe) have is that your government play ALL conflicts as promoting democracy or the national boundries of a state, or the overthrowing of a dictator, or whatever, as if this was the the only reason for the action. It NEVER is. There are lots of Dictators. There are lots of countries that have had democracy for a while, but been overthrown. There are LOTS of countries whoes borders have been breached to which the US has stood by.

It would perhaps be better if the American govt told the truth about these actions, occasionally. Say we are going after X for revenge. Or that we are going after Saddam because he has taken away our acces to cheap oil through Kewait.

2
You say:
I can understand some of the issues you have with the US gov't, but I cannot understand any resentment at all towards the US. There is a difference you know.

I think that this is a MAJOR point. What represents the US if it is not its Gov't? The People vote for everything from President to street cleaner in the states, as we understand it here...
When I (and I am sure every other European), refer to the US, we are talking about the Government, and its organs, NOT individuals. By this I mean, its govenment (Congress, sente etc), its military and its intellegence services, etc. I believe from your post that you do not. Fair enough. What do you use to define the Socio-political outlooks of the state? you cant Poll the people every time a question comes up!

Pit
The govt HAS put pressure on Loyalists, as far as it can.... Most of the loyalist organisations are still prescribed, and not deamed to be on ceasefire, therefor still under investigation.

Unfortunately, the Loyalists are also severly infiltrated with agents from the Special Branch and as such cannot be braught down (they would squeal like a stuck pig!) Mr Stobbie (a confessed MI5 informer) did last month and got 5 rounds in his face for his trouble!

MDhome

the reason why prisoners were released ON LICENCE.
1
The main arm of the IRA and Loyalist leaderships were behind bars.

2
One of the main precepts of 'green book' (the IRA handbook on ops) puts the freedom of 'freedom fighters' as of the highest priority - it is akin to the US rangers taking the bodies of their fallen - it instills a sense of comeradery, I imagine. There would have been NO cease fires had there not been movement on prisioners.

3
the final decision to go on ceasefire was formally left to the prisoners by the remaining leadership outside. Again no movement, no ceasefire

4
the licence means that if a prisoner is found to behave in ANY way that is in brech of their licence, they are back in.... Johnny Adair is an example. He was actively inciting street vilonce in his area, and popped back in the slammer....

I hope that this helps, MDhome

[RedRed]

Sasq

Wow
That was a well written post!

I couldnt comment, cos my edit indow was up for an hour, and I missed it. Sorry




RedRed

[Joel]

Just to let you know that I have always felt that the US does an admirable job of being the worlds policeman. I know its not easy and I dont always agree with US policies but the world would be a far worst place without them. Its something my country lost the power to do early last century.

Believe me this is something that most Americans wish we didn't have to do but what are we suppose to do when we are asked for help? And I agree with you when you said, but the world would be a far worst place without them.

Joel

[RedRed]

Joel -

You are probably right, though there are two questions that stem from that....

1
Who watches the watchmen?

2
when the US takes on the role of international policeman, it must be evenhanded... if its not, then the perception changes to that of a police man looking out for himself.... That makes a BENT COP.


Merry Christmas all who are intrested

RedRed

[impact]

Merry Christmas RedRed.


Only the insane have the strength to prosper;
Only those who prosper, truly judge what is sane.

[The PIT]

Originally posted by Sasq

One of the things I have learnt from different Non-US people is a lot of our fear/distrust for the US comes from the cold war, in which the non-Russian and non-US of us sat back and watched 2 big guys threatening each other not only with each others extermination but ours as well. For most of us the US was our ally and we came down on the US’s side but that didn’t really make any of us less nervous.

Yep and a lot of people are still living in this era and haven't noticed it has finnished. Unfortuntly that period also helped to destabilise some countries and the people living there haven't forgotten that. However the past cannot be changed and all you can do is move on and learn from mistakes. This has been said several times by the Americans visiting and posting on this site. I know Joel and Rags have said yep American has made mistakes in the past. I wish that People posting anti-american stuff would realise that and give them some slack.

Red Red
"The govt HAS put pressure on Loyalists, as far as it can.... Most of the loyalist organisations are still prescribed, and not deamed to be on ceasefire, therefor still under investigation.

Unfortunately, the Loyalists are also severly infiltrated with agents from the Special Branch and as such cannot be braught down (they would squeal like a stuck pig!) Mr Stobbie (a confessed MI5 informer) did last month and got 5 rounds in his face for his trouble!"

Maybe but this hasn't come out much in the news and when mentioned it comes out as an question that the reporter feels like they shouldn't ask. The special branch link I wouldn't be surprised they gave loyalists information in the past where they could find and kill key repubilcans. I remember there was a time before the ceasefire that they suddenly got very good at killing top republicans. If this did happen it will be years before it comes out.
I myself view IRA and Loyalists as the same type of people EVIL.

[RedRed]

Pit you said:

Maybe but this hasn't come out much in the news and when mentioned it comes out as an question that the reporter feels like they shouldn't ask. The special branch link I wouldn't be surprised they gave loyalists information in the past where they could find and kill key repubilcans

It's unfortunately very true....

This was the case with Mr Stobbie.... He was accused of being an accomplice to the murder of Mr Pat Finouchan, (he was said to be the driver). Unfortunately he was also an agent working for special branch. he threatened to disclose all he had told the Police about the planning for the Murder, and where they had got the information, if he was sent to trial. The trial collapsed, and the DPP dropped the case because a prime witness was now too ill to testify.... He was then toasted.

RedRed

[Rags]

It was called GunBoat diplomacy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Whoa. Nice pretty word. Anytime anyone sends over their military this is the claim

Rags,
I gotta point out to you here, the British Empire coined the term Gun Boat Diplomacy. The Navy was the mainstay and the expression of power during the days of Empire. If there was an area giving trouble, send a dreadnaught or flotilla or whatever was despatched. How do you think they were able to extend across the globe and colout the map pink? It wasnt just the Industrial Revolution, you know!

I gotta point out to you, you don't need to give me history lessons on my ancestory. I am very aware of the phrase's origins.

You said:
Show me where I have attacked you. Attacking and challenging IDEAS is not attacking a person, how hard is that to understand?

oh! read the earlier parts of this post! It certainly felt like you were attacking a person! (ME!) I wont use the language and quote you!

Sorry, but I fail to see where I attacked you personally. The only thing close was saying that I believed you would be a moron for accepting something, which was my opinion. Other than that, I fail to see it.

You said:
The only times I have seen personal attacks over issues like this is when people come storming in calling us Ignorant Americans, Stupid Americans, Arrogant Americans, etc.

I have NEVER called americans Ignorant, Stupid nor Arrogant, yet have been attacked (see earlier in this post).

That's fine, but I was just saying the only time I have seen attacks is over those issues, not during a debate.

Rags
I think that this is the main areas were we differ,
1
Many Europeans and Americans see that ANY war, providing it is won, is a commitment of resources, and the risking of peoples lives, to improve the lot of the country willing to sacrafice those lives. We DON'T believe that there is ANY altruistic intentions in ANY action (grenada and panama were the examples I quoted). While these actions do no harm to Europe, then most of europe wont have a problem.

I don't differ with that opinion. Altruism is an ideal that people hope to achieve, sometimes the means to altruism is not so cut and dry. Humans suck. Wars happen. People kill people. It's the same thing over and over. At any rate, I don't differ with you on that point. And I would surmise that most Americans don't differ with you on that point either.

The problem that we (in Europe) have is that your government play ALL conflicts as promoting democracy or the national boundries of a state, or the overthrowing of a dictator, or whatever, as if this was the the only reason for the action. It NEVER is. There are lots of Dictators. There are lots of countries that have had democracy for a while, but been overthrown. There are LOTS of countries whoes borders have been breached to which the US has stood by.

And I agree with you on that. Sometimes we don't act when we should and sometimes we act when we shouldn't. I think most Americans agree with that. I also believe that most Americans aren't so ignorant to believe that the reasons we go and do what we do is because of the "official statement".

It would perhaps be better if the American govt told the truth about these actions, occasionally. Say we are going after X for revenge. Or that we are going after Saddam because he has taken away our acces to cheap oil through Kewait.

Ahhh...now I see where you are going with this. You see, GB sr. did make a statement that he wasn't willing to let Iraq get control over half of OPEC's world supply. It isn't that he had a problem with Iraq having control, it was that his means to do so was not the best and Saddam was NOT someone we wanted to have that control (neither did the UN). But we couldn't make the fact he would have oil the only reason, it was his regime coming in and trying to eliminate an entire population of people for the sole purpose of gaining power.
So Again, I don't believe we really differ there.

2
You say:
I can understand some of the issues you have with the US gov't, but I cannot understand any resentment at all towards the US. There is a difference you know.

I think that this is a MAJOR point. What represents the US if it is not its Gov't? The People vote for everything from President to street cleaner in the states, as we understand it here...
When I (and I am sure every other European), refer to the US, we are talking about the Government, and its organs, NOT individuals. By this I mean, its govenment (Congress, sente etc), its military and its intellegence services, etc. I believe from your post that you do not. Fair enough. What do you use to define the Socio-political outlooks of the state? you cant Poll the people every time a question comes up!

You see, you need to understand our gov't before coming in here to criticize it. That's one major problem I have with some of the things you say. You make blanket statements about the US people based on our gov't and you make a storm about a system you don't even understand.
Let me draw it out for you basically how our system works:
We are a representative democracy. What this means is that we elect people to do the business of our government. We get to vote for our president (by means of an electoral college), our legislatures, and our local officials. That's it. We don't vote for street cleaners, we don't vote for secretaries of state, we don't vote for our Supreme Court Justices. Sometimes we re-elect people who have done a lot of good here at home that have not done so well abroad and vice-versa. Sometimes the good things our elected officials have done far outweigh the bad. No one is perfect, and EVERYONE screws up. One of the reasons we don't have a direct democracy is the same reason you wouldn't want a riot crowd to dictate a situation. Sometimes emotions run high in the public, and sometimes the emotions aren't the best thing to base decisions on. That's why we elect officials who are supposed to know better (also they have more access to information on the subjects, and get to study it more extensively than the public can). The Supreme Court is there to decode the constitution applied towards laws, and as such they shouldn't be elected, otherwise public sentiment of the day could quickly erode the very foundation our country is built on (our constitution).

Like I said before, laws and policies follow with great latency to public feelings at any given time, and the reason is because we don't elect officials daily, monthly, or yearly. As such, you cannot, and should not judge me, my neighbor, or any other member on this forum based on a few decisions of their gov't. It's not fair, it's not logical, and it's just plain wrong.

Rags

[Rags]

Yep and a lot of people are still living in this era and haven't noticed it has finnished. Unfortuntly that period also helped to destabilise some countries and the people living there haven't forgotten that. However the past cannot be changed and all you can do is move on and learn from mistakes. This has been said several times by the Americans visiting and posting on this site. I know Joel and Rags have said yep American has made mistakes in the past. I wish that People posting anti-american stuff would realise that and give them some slack.

Thanks Pit, and I wish they would see that we aren't just bobbing-head-dogs on the dashboard of our gov't. Your gov't has taken notice of the sway, but the people are sometimes just too stuck on the one time such and such happened, now those damned americans with their big houses, big cars, big guns, and such...damn them all.
I find it so strange that through all of this I have not seen a whole lot said on the things that Germany, Russia, etc have done in the past all in the name of all things good. Heck, China is still doing it (but it's a far cry from the way things were).

Anyhow, the world has changed in the last 100 years, hell it's changed in the last 20 years....it's completely different and our problems and challenges have changed, while some problems have stuck.

Rags

[Rags]

Originally posted by impact
Merry Christmas RedRed.


Only the insane have the strength to prosper;
Only those who prosper, truly judge what is sane.

Hehehe.

I am still waiting on your response on to what I have posted that was thought to be hypocrisy.

Rags

[mdhome]

Originally posted by Rags

Hehehe.

I am still waiting on your response on to what I have posted that was thought to be hypocrisy.

Rags

Rags, my apologies. I was wrong.

regards MD

[RedRed]

I gotta point out to you, you don't need to give me history lessons on my ancestory. I am very aware of the phrase's origins.

Sorry Rags. I was not being small, it was for your information. The way you commented on MDhomes post, it appeared that you didny know of the origin of the phrase. There was no insult to you 'ancestry' nor 'point scoring' intended, mearly enlightening. I dont know what you know.... you dont know what I know!

for most of the rest of the post, we seem to get along fine!

You see, GB sr. did make a statement that he wasn't willing to let Iraq get control over half of OPEC's world supply.

did he? I have a link to a site with transcripts of his speaches & statements.... I cant find it anywhere, but it is that honnesty I would like to see if a country is playing the role of 'international policeman'.

I am perfectly aware of how the american govenment system works, along with the Judicery, thanks.
(it is where I have a problem with the American Government imposing these 'tribrunals', rather than due process, but we have been here before.)

The point I was trying to make is that my comments are usually directed at the position taken by the american GOVENMENT, the position of the COUNTRY, obviously not the position of Individuals.

When you say:

And I agree with you on that. Sometimes we don't act when we should and sometimes we act when we shouldn't. I think most Americans agree with that. I also believe that most Americans aren't so ignorant to believe that the reasons we go and do what we do is because of the "official statement".

The 'we' in that statement refers to 'the nation of the United States of America', I take it. I was saying that the Govenment of 'the nation of the United States of America' is a bit of a mouthful, and it is easier to say 'american opinion' or 'america does this/that' or the US does this/that.

The US govenment does not take a plebicite on every forein issue, nor could anyone expect it to. We must assume that when President Bush or one of his spokesmen say something, that is the position of the nation of the United states of America, though not necessarily the view of any given individual of that country.

One thing I must say.
You and a couple of others seem to think we blindly follow our media.... Where do you get that from? Most papers in the UK are so pro America (especially these days), you would think that the UK was signed up as the next bloody state of the Union

RedRed

[The PIT]

Originally posted by RedRed
Most papers in the UK are so pro America (especially these days), you would think that the UK was signed up as the next bloody state of the Union

RedRed

Sorry RedRed I think your blindly following your bin laden sympathies again there on that one. You're still stuck on your solicalist workers handouts to have a real view of the world.