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  • #31
    sigh

    Well, I suppose I'm going to have to clarify myself, since people seem to have interpreted what I said in opposite directions.

    I hate tobacco more than anyone here could probably imagine. I had to watch my mother die from lung cancer that had spread to her brain. This was not a pretty picture, folks. Smokers who tell me "Yeah I know, I should really quit" and then continue because of the addiction which has gripped their lives like a vise are beyond any help, since ultimately, they are completely alone in this. She was not my only relative affected by this addiction. My grandmother and granduncle were reduced to a most miserable existence by emphesema for the last decades of their lives, and my cousin died at 50 of the same disease. My uncle worked hard all his life, smoking away all the time, only to be killed by a heart attack right after he had finally retired. This affected me directly as well, since my system is intolerant of second hand smoke. I remember waking up every morning with acid churning away in my stomach from having to breath that shit which was (of course) distributed throughout the house by the central air conditioner. People thought I was making this up too, which angered me greatly. This was before second hand smoke had been frowned upon by society at large, and no one would have thought to go outside just to smoke.

    And while they are making my family's lives a living hell, the human filth that profit from it sought ways to make tobacco even more addictive by adding ammonia and other poisons to the mix. They used various methods to make cigarretes appealing to young people, who were easily pressured to try stupid things, only to find that it was more than an experiment. Tobacco had gripped their lives like a pit bull through the addiction, and their equally weak friends forced them to make a tough choice.. either give up your friends or be constantly tempted by an extremely addictive drug. I went through this with friends and their younger siblings. They had no money so they stole to get cigarretes. I would dearly love to be absolute ruler of this country, if only to have the power to haul out the tobacco company execs and force them to die the kind of slow, miserable, torturous death they have forced upon so many. Would I ban tobacco? You'd better believe it. And anyone growing it or importing it would be immediately and very publicly executed as an abject lesson to everyone else who would even think of it.

    This is why I have a problem with pot, and why I had such a problem with Dogbert's childishly simplistic choices above (sorry, Dogbert, but this is something that has to be taken seriously, and we should not be presented with a quartet of glib one-liners from which to choose.) The people who advocate legalization are not thinking clearly (whether pot makes people unreasonable or unreasonable people smoke pot is just a conundrum.) If we simply legalized it, pot would become just like tobacco, and I will bet you any money you want that the tobacco companies are the ones who would also produce marajuana cigarettes. Debate as you will the addictive properties of pot, these ruthless capatalists would make it moreso. The health risks are still there as they are with tobacco (smoke any drug and it's not a good thing for the lungs.. I've had friends who were non tobacco smokers but got into smoking pot heavily.. their voices got raw and they developed a serious hacking cough from it.) There is the principle of second-hand smoke here as well, though I personally find it less objectionable than tobacco.

    How to treat it legally? Well if you ask most cops, they won't usually do anything about some individual smoking pot in his own home. Surprise! I support this attitude. People using it and posing no calculable danger to others in doing so should be left alone. (If some underage kids or others in the house are affected, that's a different matter.) This does not mean I support legalization. People who peddle the stuff now are pretty much small fry. If it were legalized, a whole industry would grow up around it. People with a vested interest in you toking up would be using all means at their disposal to shove it down your throat. And it is just not a healthy thing to be doing. There are debates about the longer term effects of pot on people, but in my experience it makes them less susceptible to reason in varying degrees. It is a fact that it remains in your system for up to a month after smoking it, and we all know how unreasonable people are when they are under the influence. The world is just too f***ed up already to be advocating screwing up people's judgement up any more.

    If my views offend anyone, I'm truly sorry. It's a shame you can't explore the truth of such a matter anymore.. there are too damned many people who would rather shy from offending someone than face a problem. There are problems with pot that we just don't know about yet, or have not fully researched. All the stoners that want it legalized don't want to be branded as criminals any more than drunks are. The problem with both is, whether it's in the law books or not, if you abuse substances you abuse yourself and those you are in contact with. That's really not something to advocate.

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    • #32
      For sure alcohol is worst for health than canabis...

      But still abuse is never good... even for sugar or salt...



      Gxis!

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      • #33
        canabis is decriminalised in two states in Australia now. South Austalia and now Western Australia, you get fined for small amounts and two plants.

        not sure about Northern Territory, they might have done the same..

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        • #34
          Yeah, Marshmallowman. Thats the intersting twist in South Australia (me 'ome state doncha know) its decriminalised but not legal. Most companies in South Australia have rules regarding smokeing or drinking at work, and with the not being legal. it stops the corpretisation (sp?) of production. So John D. Smoker can grow 2 or 3 plants at home, go home after work and light up. yes he can be busted. but only a small fine and no conviction.

          KvH - I appreciate your point, I'm going through the hell of cold turkey right now
          Juu nin to iro


          English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleys, knocks them over, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.

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          • #35
            KV
            That was a very good reply.

            Regards MD
            Interests include:
            Computing, Reading, Pubs, Restuarants, Pubs, Curries, More Pubs and more Curries

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            • #36
              Kv,

              I disagree on a few matters and I'll explain:

              Currently, as you said, you need the tabacco companies to get your smoke. And actually the same goes for alcohol etc.

              The interesting (and maybe good) thing about Cannabis is that you can grow it in your home and smoke the stuff you grow. Without added chemicals and poisons and without being part of a human experiment like with cigarettes.

              If and once Cannabis is legal, the tabacco companies will have a problem cause people gan grow their own weed for free so why buy their shit ?
              That's quite different in a way from tobacco which you can't produce by yourself as easily.

              The reason for not including cigarettes/cigars etc. is that unlike alcohol and weed, you'll have a very hard time producing them on your own.

              THis is why I think my choices are simplistic and maybe are phrased out in a childish way, but they aren't childish at all.
              There are very serious people talking about legalisation of Cannabis, for too many reasons including fibers, oils, pollution etc. Not just drug use. People never mention Cigarettes in the debate because for many reasons, cigaretes are legal, you are allowed to smoke and drive and actually while not doing anything too important or being near flamamble stuff, you can smoke as much as you like.


              Example:

              A smoking doctor is still a good doctor as long as he is smoking outside.
              On the other hand a drinking doctor or a pot smoking doctor is judged quite differently.

              Get the point ?

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              • #37
                Tobacco companies would still have a market because it's a lot easier to buy it than make it e.g. how many people bother rolling their own regular cigarettes? Generally only those who need to (cost). We can all make wine & beer at home too, but very few do.
                FT.

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                • #38
                  Tony,

                  I was referring to Cannabis.
                  Most people would rather use their own home grown weed than any purchased one.

                  I know a few weed smokers and there is a very large group here ("Green leaf") who are pro-cannabis and tried to legalise it.
                  They want to legalise it so everyone could grow his own weed, free of additives. This way there is less danger, less illegal commerce and no illegal weed coming into the country.
                  The major reason why they failed is because of the army. The reason they gave was that it's fairly easy locating alcohol while it's very hard locating weed. You can easily recognise an alcohol drinking soldier, while you'll have a big problem knowing a regular smoker from a weed smoking soldier.
                  Because the country is in a +/- state of war since it's very beginning, nobody would want a weed smoking soldier in the gurad post.
                  If not for that reason, cannabis would have been legalised here.
                  Less people would buy cigarettes, since weed is free, there would be less weed associated criminal activity and the police would have more time addressing more important issues.

                  Then you can also add the good qualities of cannabis like: fibers, oil and the fact that it produces a lot of oxygen even compared to large trees.
                  You can use cannabis for paper, cloth, fuels, oils etc. without cutting of forests.
                  Cannabis also grows much faster than any tree and it can grow almost anywhere.

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                  • #39
                    P.s.

                    Cigarettes aren't considered a drug.
                    Check out my Doctor example.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Okay we legalise Cannabis whats the next drug on the list???
                      Chief Lemon Buyer no more Linux sucks but not as much
                      Weather nut and sad git.

                      My Weather Page

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                      • #41
                        Does there have to be one?
                        DM says: Crunch with Matrox Users@ClimatePrediction.net

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                        • #42
                          Don't worry they will be and the arguments will be the same.
                          Chief Lemon Buyer no more Linux sucks but not as much
                          Weather nut and sad git.

                          My Weather Page

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                          • #43
                            No there doesn't have to be one.

                            Just because you fear another substance is no reason to deny all the arguments for this one.

                            Would you like to suggest some likely candidates?
                            FT.

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                            • #44
                              Currently, as you said, you need the tabacco companies to get your smoke. And actually the same goes for alcohol etc.
                              Not really. Doing so would just be inconvenient and time consuming.. it's called division of labor. That's what we have in "civilization;" butchers, bakers, candlestick makers. It makes life a bit easier.

                              The interesting (and maybe good) thing about Cannabis is that you can grow it in your home and smoke the stuff you grow. Without added chemicals and poisons and without being part of a human experiment like with cigarettes.
                              It's just as easy to have a tobacco garden. The Indians smoked rolled up tobacco leaves.

                              If and once Cannabis is legal, the tabacco companies will have a problem cause people gan grow their own weed for free so why buy their shit ? That's quite different in a way from tobacco which you can't produce by yourself as easily.
                              Why don't you do us both a favor and think before you type?

                              The reason for not including cigarettes/cigars etc. is that unlike alcohol and weed, you'll have a very hard time producing them on your own.
                              Do you really think that reiterating an insultingly wrong statement three times will make it so?

                              There are very serious people talking about legalisation of Cannabis, for too many reasons including fibers, oils, pollution etc. Not just drug use.
                              There are very serious people who want to blow up your country, too. Are they any more justified?

                              People never mention Cigarettes in the debate because for many reasons, cigaretes are legal, you are allowed to smoke and drive and actually while not doing anything too important or being near flamamble stuff, you can smoke as much as you like.
                              People never mention it because they are not thoughtful enough to do so.

                              A smoking doctor is still a good doctor as long as he is smoking outside.
                              I remember going in for a test with a smoking doctor. He left in the middle of the procedure to get his fix because the lack of it was causing him to be nervous with withdrawal symptoms. He then came back and breathed the shit in my face.

                              Less people would buy cigarettes, since weed is free, there would be less weed associated criminal activity and the police would have more time addressing more important issues.
                              You really don't have a clue, do you? Tobacco use is not going to decline just because people could smoke weed instead. Pot will not assuage the cravings of a tobacco addict.

                              Weed makes people not give a shit anymore. Just because you are in lala land doesn't mean real problems have suddenly disappeared. It just means there are fewer responsible people available to deal with them.

                              Cigarettes aren't considered a drug.
                              Check out my Doctor example.
                              Wrong. Check out my doctor example.



                              Alright, Dogbert.. I've proved that I can argue. Why don't you prove that you can write a thoughtful and considered position that makes some sense? It pisses me off that I just wasted all this time refuting a bunch of ill-thought-out crap. I'm not going to argue at this level anymore. If, in your mind, the winner of an argument is he who can talk (or type) the loudest for the longest period of time, than I concede the argument to you. You are the victor. What a pathetic world.
                              Last edited by KvHagedorn; 7 May 2002, 05:07.

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                              • #45
                                Kv,

                                Someone smart said here, I don't do mind wrestling with unarmed people.

                                edit: It's Dr.Mordid who said:
                                Sorry, but I make it a policy not to play mind games with an un-armed opponent."
                                You don't know anything about weed smoking do you ?
                                Do you think a cigarette is the only way to smoke weed ?
                                Never heard of those little glass botle (calles "Bang" here) where you use nothing but weed, ha ?
                                As you propably never heard of other smoking devices like the Arab "Narguilla" etc.

                                While no one I know grows tobacco in his garden, rolls leaves and smokes them, I DO know people who buy tobacco and roll their own cigaretes and who grow weed and smoke their own stuff.

                                Why don't you do us both a favor and think before you type?
                                Why don't you do everyone a favor and stop being so ignorant ???

                                Your single doctor example is worthless compared with contless exellent smoking doctors I know.

                                Still, cigarettes aren't legally considered a drug, you're allowed to smoke while operating heavy machinery.

                                Alright, Dogbert.. I've proved that I can argue. Why don't you prove that you can write a thoughtful and considered position that makes some sense? It pisses me off that I just wasted all this time refuting a bunch of ill-thought-out crap. I'm not going to argue at this level anymore. If, in your mind, the winner of an argument is he who can talk (or type) the loudest for the longest period of time, than I concede the argument to you. You are the victor. What a pathetic world
                                No, you can't argue, you can try throwing off pathetic arguments because you're blind and ignorant. I too knew people who died from smoking. I too am against smoking. But between those two and being a total blind ignorant man there is a long way to go, which apparantly - you did !

                                There's a nice thing called READING, try it once, you might like it. You can do it about many subjects, try doing it about a plant called Cannabis, try doing it about the non-drug related stuff. You'll be both surprised and ENLIGHTENED.

                                WAKE UP !

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