Sometimes it is ok to spank your kids

[dancray]

Joel, Gurm started "it" by condoning assault on children. And it did not take Gurm long to lose his temper.

If you hit a child, it is assault. Check you criminal code.

[BuddMan]

Originally posted by dancray
Joel, Gurm started "it" by condoning assault on children.

Oh jesus, will I have to call your parents...

[KeiFront]

Dancray, Gurm means spanking as discipline, not abuse.

[dancray]

if you hit a kid, it is assault. I cannot see how you can spank a child with hitting him.

http://www.nospank.net/canada5.htm

[Dr Mordrid]

My father was a very loving man. He would just launch me into low earth orbit once in a while with the business end of a weeping willow switch

There are basically two ways to dicipline: corporal (physical) and "lecturing".

Let's face facts and not depend on the usual psychobabble: kids, especially those under 7-8, just don't have the neurlogic facilities to perform logic at anywhere near the level needed to process "lectures". They just don't "get" it without reinforcement.

They do, however, perfectly well understand that if the do certain acts their backside will suffer for it, bigtime. Enter: "reinforcement"

It's worked for 10,000 years and then some college educated idiot decides he knows more than all that experience. Enter Dr. Spock. His books screwed up more new parents than it's possible to count.

Shortly before his death Dr. Spock renigged on his former advice on this and many other matters he advised on in his books.

I guess he noticed that the generations raised under his tutorage grew up to be absolute brats with very little self control and even less common sense.

Dr. Mordrid

[Gurm]

No, you want to know what's abuse?

Abuse is raising a child that has no moral compass. No sense of right and wrong.

THAT'S abuse.

And sadly, that's exactly what your propagandistic website there encourages.

I still want to know - explain to me EXACTLY how you are going to EXPLAIN to your 18-month-old not to touch the hot stove.

Go on. Tell us! We're all ears! We WANT to know!

If there's some miracle method to communicate with children who are lacking in the basic language skills to understand us, we want to know!

Maybe you are the baby whisperer's secret apprentice (always two, there are - master and apprentice!) and can communicate with children who lack the verbal capability to do anything other than gurgle.

So please, sir. Enlighten us as to your wondrous ways. How should we discipline an infant? A toddler?

Let's list ways that WON'T work.

- Rewarding good behavior. Doesn't work, since the child learns VERY quickly that it can be bad, then immediately stop in order to get a reward. Oops, that didn't help!

- Time-outs. Don't work, because after roughly 1 minute, the child has forgotten why they are in the timeout area.

- Explaining. Well, THAT doesn't work, the child has no idea what you're saying.

So let us in on some methods that DO work. Please. For the sake of all mankind.

I wish to God that I never had to slap logan. I wish that I could effectively communicate to him, using my adult language (which he does not understand, despite being extremely intelligent - he DID inherit my IQ after all), why he needs to not do something. Sadly, I have been unable to do so - as have parents for thousands of years.

I find it amusing that you think you have the answers. I'd like to hear them.

- Gurm

[dancray]

Gurm, you crossed a line you could have easily avoided, but chose the easiest uncreative method of attack - attacking me personally because I dared disagree with you. Rather than talking issues, you call me names.

Now Gurm, why on earth would you care what an "idiot" has to say?

eom

[Dr Mordrid]

dancray;

Talk about redirecting the conversation....

First of all: Gurm didn't call you an idiot without justification. He had cause to

The only mention of the term "idiot" in this thread before yours was in my inititial reply and that was referring to Dr. Spock, not your sorry logic.

Now to the point: you still haven't addressed the excellent points made by Gurm two posts up.

Of course there is a reason why you can't answer his points: they are self-evident truth, as any experienced parent over the last zillion years, animal or human, could tell you.

Dr. Mordrid

[Gurm]

To discredit you, of course!

You may very well be an idiot - at least in this particular field - but you're an idiot who thinks he's right.

The best way to deal with those people is to trap them in a logical fallacy.

We're already halfway there. You have offered zero viable alternatives to corporal punishment, instead relying on vague "be creative" and "be empathetic" statements.

So in the minds of virtually everyone else here, your arguments have absolutely no weight. I'm offering you a chance to clarify your position. Either we will all go "OHHH! NOW WE GET IT!" or you'll be completely discredited.

To refuse to answer implies that you assume that you'll be completely discredited, and is the same as if you were.

So amaze us! Shock us! Prove us ALL wrong!

We're all successful parents. We are all successful people, whose parents used corporal punishment on us. Not a single person here has come out in defense of your theory, and THAT in and of itself is telling.

Even Dr. Spock has (admittedly at the last minute and under some mental anguish) come back from the grave to contradict you... despite the fact that the site you posted paraphrases his books quite extensively.

So please - this is your only hope at obtaining credibility. Do it for yourself. Don't do it for me - I already know I'm right.

And you accuse me of getting personal. You're the one that called all physical discipline "abuse". You're the reason that I'm afraid that every time I give my kid a rap on the hand in public that I'll get arrested and have him taken away. You're the kind of person that causes thousands of children each year to be ripped away from their loving parents, and put in foster homes, when the only thing the poor parents did was give them a swat on the butt when they were pitching a hissy fit in public.

I _hate_ people with the views you have already espoused. Why should you reply? How about to explain to us all why we shouldn't revile and fear you? I'm sure Greebe, Joel, and any other parent on this board will concur that it has more than once crossed their mind that some "well intentioned" moron who espouses your "zero tolerance for 'child abuse' policy" will have their children stolen from them, never to be returned.

Tell us why you aren't the enemy of the American family. Please.

- Gurm

P.S. Joel, I know I got a bit impassioned there, but I refrained from attacking any personal characteristic of Dancray - focusing instead on his avowed belief system. And I tend to think, as I indicated, that I am speaking for every parent who has ever had to rein in an unruly child at a restaurant.

[The PIT]

Well theres basically two camps here.

Camp one: Says hitting a child at all is wrong and teaches the child that violence is correct and therefore creates a violent child.

Camp two: says the odd smack doesn't do any harm (We're not talking about bashing them around the room here) and shows the child that it has done wrong.

Well I grew up with the camp two era and we as kids knew respect and were the line was. Okay we tested the line sometimes and if we weren't punished we knew we'd got away with it. Note the last bit "We got away with it".

If Camp one is correct there would be less yobs around. Unfortunaley not. The kids today know you can't do anything if one throws a brick through your car window and you hit them you're off to jail.

[Gurm]

Yes, excellent point PIT.

The evidence of 40 years of bad (confused) parenting speaks for itself. Today's youth knows that there are no REAL consequences for their actions. I don't ONLY blame parents. I also blame the justice system.

There is a real attitude today of zero personal accountability, and it really needs to stop. That needs to start at home.

- Gurm

P.S. I'm still waiting for someone to disprove that an infant cannot be reasoned with - oh wait, it's a known fact. Nevermind.

[Dr Mordrid]

PRECISELY !!

And while we're at it lets take on the "zero tolerance" policies in schools while we're at it.

In years past if you screwed up major in school you got it at least 3 times;

1. from the principals "board of education"... a 3" wide paddle with holes in it.

2. your parents

3. your grandparents

not to mention whatever other relatives happened to live nearby

Since corporal punishment left the schools all they can do is kick the little monsters out, so what do they do? Kick them out for everything short of breathing.

Those 1" tall plastic toy cowboys become a "gun in the school", resulting in a year long suspension; a girls nail file becomes a "knife" and a kids asthma inhaler becomes an "unatuthorized drug" in the school.

Of course this kind of automatic "punishment" is EXACTLY what the kids raised under dancray's methods want!! With mom & dad (if there is one) they get to party all day with their also-expelled friends!!

Real smart on the part of the schools and self-explanation as to why so many kids get in trouble during the day.

Dr. Mordrid

[The PIT]

Originally posted by Dr Mordrid
PRECISELY !!

And while we're at it lets take on the "zero tolerance" policies in schools while we're at it.

Since corporal punishment left the schools all they can do is kick the little monsters out, so what do they do? Kick them out for everything short of breathing. Toy cowboys become "guns in the schools" and a kids asthma breather becomes an "unatuthorized drug" in the schools

Of course thie "punishment" is EXACTLY what the kids want!! With mom & dad (if there is one) they get to party all day with their also-expelled friends.

Real smart on the part of the schools and self-explanation as to why so many kids get in trouble during the day.

Dr. Mordrid

I feel sorry for schools what can they do if they leave the yobs in they spoil the lessons for the rest of the kids who are trying to learn kick em out the school gets slagged off.

[Greebe]

heh... it really wasn't so much that you were doing wrong, but if caught you would pay the price when Dad/Mom found out... that's were the very REAL fear factor was that prevented most if not all the right way to make decisions at such and young age... which carried on to the Teen years were if not we would all be alot worse off if hadn't been. Do we want to spank our children... heck no, Do we not repect our parents to this day for such action and or hate hate them... no not on your life, actually quite thankful for 98% of it

But what has happened since Dr. Spocks BS has been grossly counter productive to say the least.

[BuddMan]

If anything I respect my parents MORE because they actually did spank me. Had they not I'd hate to think how it would have all turned out....