U.S. Central Command moving.....

[Ryu Connor]

Look at the time line of WWII. The US didnt really get involved (except for a few nods in Winstons general direction) until after Pearl Harbour. The US had just gone through a period of almost complete isolationism.

Actually this country tends to go through phases of isolationism. We tried rather hard to ignore WWI and though we became involved in imperiliast expansion during the late 1800's we ultimately decided that our manifest destiny didn't fit with those ideals. The guerillas in the Philipines kicking our ass only added further weight to a question that had a divided answer in the country at that time.

Despite having declared neurtrality the country did not do much with regard to sitting on the ole tush. The Liberty ships and the flood of goods as aid to the UK should be a pretty clear indication of that. We had so many ships and so many convoys it just about made unrestricted UBoat warfare Germany was waging worthless. Of course as Wombat noted earlier, we also didn't mind profiting from the German war machine.

There is NO parallel. What you are saying is, in effect, that had Europe completely obliterated germany at the end of WWI, then Hitler would not have risen to prominence. Wrong. The treaty of Versailles and the gross miss-management of the German economy and the world crash of the 1920's prior to Hitlers rise created him. He promised Bread and Living Room.... and removal of the treaty conditions. (we have create um..... all 3 conditions there in Iraq, surrender, sanctions and a crippled economy....)

While what you are saying is basically true. All those economic events did bring about the rise of Hitler. The people were so desperate for relief they were ready to believe anyone who would promise a positive change.

The part about the US putting in a dictator in Iraq and recreating the situation is just your opinion. We will either leave it someone else hand, like in Afghanistan or we'll treat Iraq like we did Japan. I don't think Japan came out all that bad seeing as they are the second largest economy in the world today.

Dont revel in thaughts of your country going to war with another until you have seen the same.

It's ultimately not a decision for you to make. I believe it is time to go to war before we have a WMD dropped in our backyard. How many more people must die before we realize that the best defense is a good offense?

The US may well knock 7 bells out of Iraq (again) and install their own pet dictator (again), but where does it get us in the rest of the world? The US with another puppet, and a launchpad on Saudi arabia or Iran? no thanks

Now you're just making wild assumptions. When has America ever taken over a country and then used it as a launchpad to destroy the next one in line?

I already quoted some of our darker history with regard to our phase of imperialist expansion, but I don't think you'll find an example in our history of that style of action.

[thop]

How many more people must die before we realize that the best defense is a good offense?

[goldstein]

some well written articles from an Australian perspective about the US - and this from a friend and ally. Perhaps some openminded Murcers could take a look and share:

http://theage.com.au/articles/2002/06/16/1023864377550.html

http://theage.com.au/articles/2002/09/11/1031608270446.html

http://theage.com.au/articles/2002/03/06/1015365716390.html

http://theage.com.au/articles/2002/09/11/1031608270456.html

"The US refuses to deal with the causes of terrorism except through the threat of massive retaliation, which ignores the sense of political grievance that distinguishes acts of terrorism from criminal acts. This magnifies the grievance and creates a cycle of greater violence."

[RedRed]

Joel - During WWII, until 1941, america suported the UK privately, true. It supported germany through non military trade all through 1939. If you dont believe me, well fair enough, but I might recommed a range of books on the subject (several by american authors), should you wish. It wasnt like the movies, even the History Channel or Discovery will fill you in on this.

I am not blameing the US for ANYTHING. Anything at all.

I am saying, however, that the rise of Hitler was nothing at all to do with american involvement or lack of it.

America had no material involvement in the war until 3rd June 1940 - over a year after hitler had made his moves. The Battle of Britian was over. Hitler had by then taken France, the low countries, poland etc.

What is materially different between WWII and this conflict is that Hitler attacked other countries and was then defeated. We have done that already.

The first Gulf war contained Saddam. Arms inspectors (including a self proclaimed CIA spy) reckon that his entire Nuclear and a substantial part of his Biological and Chemical arsenal 99% of his deployment systems (3 scuds unacounted for out of 350) were destroyed.

George Bush has said publically that he wants a regieme change. He wants to install a new puppet. He has said so. The US created and nurtured this toy - Saddam doesnt want to go back into the box. Can you blame him?

I am not blaming the US for my troubles.

Again I am not trying to diss your country, Joel. I really am not. Yes you had a brave band who fought the British to be free, and you won. And you can be proud of that. However, what the US is doing here is NOT protecting its self. Its PROJECTING its self.

Regards

[edit added the words 'want' ]

[goldstein]

However, what the US is doing here is NOT protecting its self. Its PROJECTING its self.

?

Can you explain "projecting"? As in influencing, expanding, lighting up? Unclear.

[RedRed]

Thanks Ryu - I was writing while you were posting - I missed it.

You are quite correct, I do post my opinions. Thats what I do.

Now you're just making wild assumptions. When has America ever taken over a country and then used it as a launchpad to destroy the next one in line

Should the US attack Iraq, a substantial site for this will be Candahar. I believe that US forces wont want to drive from Saudi this time - too much politics. They will probably attack primarrially form the sea and from Afghanistan, thats what I meant by hopping on.....

It's ultimately not a decision for you to make.

and thank god for that! Its not my call, my countries either, I believe. I dont think its the American peoples decision either.

[RedRed]

Goldstien - Projecting - as in influencing and expanding its powerbase.


sorry - Ive thought more about this -the application of influence or strength a distance form its core.... I wouldnt delete the first part, but ignore it...

Regards

[goldstein]

thanks. I can see that interpretation. But that is the nature of all superpowers; expand or die. Not much point or possibility to maintain status quo for any real length of time.

[RedRed]

yup.

[Ryu Connor]

and thank god for that! Its not my call, my countries either, I believe. I dont think its the American peoples decision either.

You just summed up the largest difference between the people of Europe and the people of the US. You may not believe it's the decision of the American people to carry out, but this country knows better.

[RedRed]

Ryu
Europeans have been on the recieving end of war for generations. I think that generally, most are adverse to it.

We dont (at least since the British empire fell) feel that its 'our place' to impose our desires on other nations.

Perhaps you do. You certainly have the strength for it. I dont think that one country 'knows better', I think the rest are just more experienced.

Regards
RedRed

[Dogbert]

Originally posted by RedRed
Ryu
Europeans have been on the recieving end of war for generations. I think that generally, most are adverse to it.

Like in Congo ? Falkland ? Asia ? Algeria ?

Everywhere Europeans set their foot, war erupted.
I don't buy this rubbish.

[Dogbert]

Just a little reminder to the uneducated among us:

The biggest tyrants in the world came from Europe.

The Europeans massacred the indians in South America,
The Europeans took away Australia from it's natives and turned it into a big prison.
The Europeans took the blacks from Africa as slaves.
The Europeans went to war in Asia before the U.S did.
.
.
.
And finally, the U.S became from what was European immigrants. So what's your god damn problem ? Do you hate what you see in the mirror so much ? Start by taking care of the things YOU ruined and only then then go meddle with other people's affairs.

[Joel]

Alright I think enough is enough.

Joel