"Joint Resolution to Authorize the use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq"

[Dr Mordrid]

Originally posted by SpiralDragon
let me put it to you this way.... i don't care much about syria (i want them out of the country) and i would like to see hizboula disarmed... but here is the situation; the minute hizbulah is ataked lebanon is going to plunge into another civil war.....

do you realy think that war is the only option?

How long has Syria been in Lebanon and how long has Hizboula been basing terrorist attacks from there with Iranian funding & logistical support? 20 years? Doesn't look like it's going to cure itself.....

I see only three possibilities;

1. political pressure on Syria & Iran to stop supporting Hizboula succeeds and gets them out of country (not very likely).

2. Iran's citizenry rises up against the clerics who run much of the political apparatus in a pro-democracy revolution. This then would put the whole burden of supporting Hizboula on the Syrians, who likely cannot afford it themselves.

It's pretty much common knowledge that a pro-democracy revolution is brewing in Iran, it's just a matter of time. Just today the clerics shut down the public polling dept. because it reported 80% citizen approval for closer ties to the U.S.

Given some encouragement maybe some good things will happen.....

3. absent success with #'s 1 & 2 the only other alternative is to kick the Syrians and Hizboula out by force (see: Afghanistan).

Hizboula forces in Lebanon are actually in a worse tactical position than the Taliban: they could be attacked in a manner where their backs would be to the sea. Last I checked they didn't have a navy

Not good for them....

I'd really hate to see another conflict in Lebanon myself as I can remember its days as the Jewel of the Med. Beautiful country indeed with very friendly people, but when you have a pervasive cancer you sometimes need surgery.....

Dr. Mordrid

[mutz]

[Dr Mordrid]

One way to lighten things up

Dr. Mordrid

[RedRed]

Dr Mordrid

It couldnt be like Afghanistan....

The US could never use B52's.... Cruise Missiles or even take much advantage of obvious air superiority.....

Thsi is a densly populated area of the world, unlike Afghanistan.... There are some HB bases, true, but that is not where the main forces are....

It isnt like alqueda or Afghanistan. It would require massive ground operations as in Somalia - probably with the same results....

The only solution in Lebanon, as I see it is to achieve political settlement.

It could take another 20 years for a revolutuion in Iran... they have already had one this generation, and a very painful war with Iraq.

[Dr Mordrid]

Your presumption is wrong. B-52's don't have to use area weapons like cluster bombs anymore. They have better amarments now: JDAMS.

Cruise missiles and JDAM's (both of which are GPS guided) can hit within a few feet of their aiming point. Perfect for precision bombing. Collateral damage may not be completely eliminated, but it's certainly strongly reduced since with more accuracy you can use smaller warheads.

That an opponent puts military targets in residential areas is a shame on them, not us.

Also; it seems that Hizboula congregates in larger groups in the Baca Valley. Give them a group and they'll dial up up a few of those cluster bomgs on their munitions switch....

As for what happened in Somalia that disaster happened for one reason: "President" Clinton refused to give the Marines armored support. That gang of al Quaeda backed terrorists (yup, evidence found in Afghanistan confirms it was them) that ambushed our Marines would have thought twice with a couple of Abrams tanks and a few Bradleys in the neighborhood.

Lets also not forget that our Marines were there on a peacekeeping mission to feed starving people. Don't make out that they were bad guys.

Your analysis of Iran is wrong too. In your comments "this generation" means your generation. Most of Irans population is under 25, which means that they have no memory of the events of the late '70's. This is why there is such a large disconnect between them and the Mullahs.

A political settlement is definitely preferrable, but do you really think that the Iranian and Syrian govts. and Hizboula are negotiable? When pigs fly.....

Dr. Mordrid

[Wombat]

This generation? Not really. 60% of Iran is younger than 25. Most of the country doesn't remember revolution, and were mere children during war.

[Wombat]

Hizboulah does not want to be a part of a government. It weakens their position if they can be blamed as part of the problem. They already turned down cabinet seats offered by Arafat.

[Dr Mordrid]

Hizboula in an Arafat cabinet?

Talk about a nest of vipers

Dr. Mordrid

[Dilitante1]

DOH!

time to make glass parking lots over there and be done with it

these areas of the world have fought for hundreds to thousands of years, and NO solution will make everyone happy, hence the "factions" that create unrest due to thier unhappiness with something someone said/did

it is a shame
"life is a sh*t sandwich, and everyday we have to take a bite"

[Wombat]

time to make glass parking lots over there and be done with it

I saw and heard many similar comments about Afghanistan a year ago. It completely baffles me.

Where the hell do you expect people to go? Are you going to send a memo that says "Dear innocents, please leave the area while we destroy evildoers?" There are millions of innocent people there. Nuking them in order to "prevent terrorism" is hypocrisy of the highest order.

[Dilitante1]

Where the hell do you expect people to go? Are you going to send a memo that says "Dear innocents, please leave the area while we destroy evildoers?" There are millions of innocent people there. Nuking them in order to "prevent terrorism"
is hypocrisy of the highest order.

I did NOT say to nuke the ENTIRE country, Hussien has a # of palaces and other places to hide, and as for "innocent" people....the majority of people around him are loyal military members EXCEPT for the human shields he sets up for himself due to blind loyalty of the Iraqi people

I saw and heard many similar comments about Afghanistan a year ago. It completely baffles me.

it was probably me
and the idea would be to prevent the Taliban and Al-Queda forces from harrassing our troops over there, a noble goal

[mutz]

...this ones for you Dil...

[Vlip]

Isn't that this club where a terrorist country sits as a president of the SECURITY COUNCIL ?

Oh the Irony, from a country whose prime minister should be sitting next to Milosevic in the Hague, oh the Irony.

The same club who's soldiers and politicians collaborated with a terror organisation controlled by the president of the security council - called Hizbolla ?

From a country who trained/armed and supported a local terrorist militia in it's illegal occupation of a southern security zone, a militia who abducted and murdered Irish UN soldiers, a country who mercilessly shelled a UN headquarter, and so on, the list is long...

If you want I can also play the little quote game about IDF's outrageous comportment with UN soldiers, but it will probably turn into a flamewar.

Anyway as I said that's not the point, the point is that the US is hiding behind the UN for some sort of legitimacy yet at the same time finds a way to disprove themselves.

Come on guys, you should just have dropped the point about the SC resolutions, we all know the US doesn't care about the UN.

The UN is also the same group that voted the US off the Human Rights Commission. Of course China & a few other states with less than stellar records are now running it

Pff, another gross truth distortion.

To get a seat in this commission you are part of a voting group.
IIRC one is for the western countries, one for the africans, one for the asiatic and so much.

It's not the fault of China for being part of the Asiatic group, competing with other asiatic countries to get the asiatic chair if they won.
It's also not the fault of the two Europeans countries who competed against the US in the western group for the two western chairs that they won!

What you claim is the equivalent of making a fuss because Micheal Schumacher didn't get the trophee in the 400m hurdle race, a race in which he didn't even participate.

The President has made it clear that states that support terrorism are at risk. So far he's been taking them on one at a time and looks to be a man of his word. Just ask the Taliban

Then Israel should be shaking in it's boots too.

How long has Syria been in Lebanon and how long has Hizboula been basing terrorist attacks from there with Iranian funding & logistical support? 20 years? Doesn't look like it's going to cure itself.....

Read "Pity the Nation" to get a somewhat accurate description of what a Lebanese civil war is. I feel for you Spiral and truelly hope that Lebanon will get the peace it so much deserves.

I see another option: Let Hezbollah disolve itself through time as it becomes irrelevant.

Hezbollah rise to power is a direct result from the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. What makes you believe another "anti-terrorist" invasion (like the Israeli invasion, we saw the magnificent result) would yeld anything else than a total disaster?

Another mystake you do is trying to put such a war in the mold of a conventional war, yet past Lebanese wars have proven that it is suprisingly easy to conquer the land, it's only after that all hell breaks loose and that body bag start getting sent home.
The enemy in Lebanon is not the guy in front of you in the front line, it's the guy behind you.

Hizboulah does not want to be a part of a government. It weakens their position if they can be blamed as part of the problem. They already turned down cabinet seats offered by Arafat.

Hizbollah is a Lebanese group, I fail to see what the hell they'd have to do in Arafat's cabinet. Where do you have read that Wombat?

these areas of the world have fought for hundreds to thousands of years, and NO solution will make everyone happy, hence the "factions" that create unrest due to thier unhappiness with something someone said/did

Pretty much like Europe in the middle age ain't it? Yet we found a wayout of it.
The middle east is barely starting to heal the wounds that decades of colonialism by european powers did, and yet you americans are now claiming that the solution to those problems is another wave of colonialism. Way to go

[Dr Mordrid]

You Europeans found a way out of your middle ages mentality? Could have fooled me. Twice in the 1900's the US had to come save your bacon from yourselves and pay for a lot of the rebuild afterwards. Then we all but had to beg you to fix the Yugoslavia problem even though it was a direct threat to Europes arse.

Not much pragmatism going on there as far as I can see....

As far as Hizboula goes it may be camped out in Lebanon, but it's pure home grown palestinian terrorism when you get to the bottom of it. All that's Lebanese about it is that it's encamped at that location with funding and logistical support from Syria and Iran.

As far as "the guy behind you" goes in Lebanese wars; think that'll matter with a bunch of Predators flying over the scene knocking them off before our guys even land? Those spy planes shoot first 'ya know.... and their damned good at it.

War is changing my man....we don't fight like we did in Vietnam or even Somalia anymore, and the Predator is just one of the new things that'll make life hell for opponents. Soon it'll be metamorphic and active camoflages, robot swarm and a bunch of other nasties that'll make life hell for conventionally equipped groups like them.

IMHO Hizboula & co. should sue for peace while they're still sucking air.

As far as Israel being a "terrorist state" goes; I'd be doing exactly what they do in their place. They're surrounded on all sides by nations and Palestinian "leaders" that wish them ill and blow up their kids and women with impunity. Chickenshits deserve whatever Israel sends them.

Don't forget that most of this started with the 6 day war; one where the ARAB nations invaded Israel. All they did was WIN and create a buffer zone in the form of captured territory.

That the Palestinians are now pained by that loss is something they should take up with the arab countries that brought on their misery by starting that war in 1967.

The arabs states that lost them their territory by their stupid actions sure aren't taking on their share of responsibility, that's for sure. If they'd spent 10% of the money they've spent on supporting terrorism on rehabing the Palestinian people instead of inflaming them everyone would have been better off.

Dr. Mordrid

[Vlip]

You Europeans found a way out of your middle ages mentality? Could have fooled me. Twice in the 1900's the US had to come save your bacon from yourselves and pay for a lot of the rebuild afterwards. Then we all but had to beg you to fix the Yugoslavia problem even though it was a direct threat to Europes arse.

I admit it, I made a mystake, I should have wrote: occidental europe instead of Europe.
And even though, 50 years of peace between nations who haven't done a damn thing except fight each other for close to thousand years is an achievement worth noting.
I don't understand your "direct threat to Europes arse" I fail to see how Yugoslave was any kind of threat to our arses?

As far as Hizboula goes it may be camped out in Lebanon, but it's pure home grown palestinian terrorism when you get to the bottom of it. All that's Lebanese about it is that it's encamped at that location with funding and logistical support from Syria and Iran.

Wrong the Hezbollah is composed by Shiah Lebanese, exactly the same lebanese who suffered the most from the outrageous comportment of PLO gunmen before the Israeli invasion (and thereafter the Lebanese who suffered the most from the Israeli invasion).
The Hezbollah would slaughter the PLO if it dared try to recreate the mini-PLO state they had in Lebanon before.
Equating Hezbollah with the Pals is wrong, they support the Pals aspiration to a state, but they won't dirty their own hands for that goal.

As far as "the guy behind you" goes in Lebanese wars; think that'll matter with a bunch of Predators flying over the scene knocking them off before our guys even land? Those spy planes shoot first 'ya know.... and their damned good at it.

The Israelis also had drones to protect their troops during occupation, yet they failed. An army invading another country is a difficult target, an army sitting on it's ass occupying a country is a perfectly easy target. Just remember Beirut my friend.

As far as Israel being a "terrorist state" goes; I'd be doing exactly what they do in their place. They're surrounded on all sides by nations and Palestinian "leaders" that wish them ill and blow up their kids and women with impunity. Chickenshits deserve whatever Israel sends them.

Yeah sure, whatever. Completely disregard Sabra and Shatila, disregard the Liberty, disregard Qana, disregard kidnapping in foreign country, disregard worldwide assassinations, disregard brutal occupation, disregard collective punishment, disregard settlements, disregard expropriation, disregard Jewish terrorists, disregard Israeli backed terrorist group abroad and so on...

The picture ain't black and white, the arabs dealing of the situation is equally as disgusting as the Israelis IMO.

Don't forget that most of this started with the 6 day war; one where the ARAB nations invaded Israel. All they did was WIN and create a buffer zone in the form of captured territory.

The creation of Israel was a mystake from the UN. Before you all yell "nazi" and "anti-semite" let me explain myself.
As a swiss there is a right that is really important to me, the right to self-determination.
The only one who should control the fate of a land is those who inhabite it.
As such, do you contest that the Zionist wouldn't have been able to immigrate into Palestine had the local arabs (and resident jews) been into control of their fate instead of being under colonial occupation by the Brits? Doubt it
Do you contest that never the inhabitant of Palestine would have accepted the 1948 partition if they had had the right to vote on that topic like they should have had? Of course not.
As such the creation of Israel was a violation of the right to self-determination of the inhabitants of that land.
As such the creation of Israel was an act of war against the inhabitant of said land and as such the whole picture is painted differently.

Now there is a huge precision I have to add before you all jump at my neck.
Take nowaday Israel (1967 borders), make a votation and ask:
1° Do you want this land to stay Israel
2° Do you want this land to be given back to the Pals

What will the result be? Of course number 1.
As such Nowadays Israel is a legitimate state.

Now make the same votation in the Occupied territories.
What do you think the result would be?
Of course number 2.
As such the Israelis have no claim to that land.

The right of self-determination is the most important of all rights, as all the other human rights depend from it.

A nation depriving people their right to self-determination is IMO a terrorist state. As such Israel is a terrorist state. Exactly like China is regarding to the Tibet mess, India and Pakistan regarding the Cachmiri mess.

I do not recognise the right of a nation to steal land by force and then colonize it with their own people by chasing the local inhabitants. It's a war crime and a crime against humanity. Exactly like the expulsion of jews from their home and the settlement of germans in Poland was a war crime and a crime against humanity.

Most of our problems are directly linked to this right to self-determination, Nation hates it as it strongly limits their power to bully people around, but it is the most important right of all.

P.S: An interesting analyse would be to wonder what would have happened to the historical Israel before they had to flee that land if their right to self-determination had been respected. You got it, Israel would still exist.