"Joint Resolution to Authorize the use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq"

[Dogbert]

Vlip,

You are so full of it

Did you know how many times the Arabs massacred the Israeli jews BEFORE WWII ?
No you don't !
You don't know SHIT !

You have no idea when and where the Arabs came here from after the Roman deportation don't you ?
You don't happen to know that Arafat is for example Egyptian, don't you ?
Or that the Hizbolla has no reason for war against israel anymore but they still wage war.
Or maybe the fact that some of the occurences you mentioned happend by Christian militia in Lebannon because this fraction constantly faught the muslims ?
Oh, you don't care about this little INTERNAL LEBANESE affair now, don't you ?
Did you know that Sirya is ruled by an opressing minority ?
And that Jordan was GIVEN AS A PRESENT to Sharif Hussain from the Britis, knowing he'll be controlling a majority of people much different from him ?

Educate yourself before you speak. You don't have the slightest idea of the tens of masacres Arabs did to the resident Jews here before and after WWII. What about the murder in Munic Olympics ? The bombing of the jews in Argentina ? The massacre of children in Maalot ? You just go read Pro-Arab propaganda and cut and paste it into your posts.

And bout the "right of nation to" was it your right to sell chechoslovakia to the Nazis ? Or Poland ?
You're reallyu a true remain to the Barbaric people of Europe. The people who massacred the natives of south America, who massacred the Jews and Gypsies because racism etc. etc. etc.
You are in no way better than the Swiss bankers who stole the money from murdered jews in WWII.

[Vlip]

You are so full of it

Thanks for the compliment.

Did you know how many times the Arabs massacred the Israeli jews BEFORE WWII ?

Yes, and how is that relevant?
Let me also remember that Jews had their fair share of terrorist groups in the same region in that period.

You have no idea when and where the Arabs came here from after the Roman deportation don't you ?

And how is that relevant?

You don't happen to know that Arafat is for example Egyptian, don't you ?

Yes, I know that.

Yasser Arafat, Palestinian nationalist and leader, was born in Cairo on 24th August 1929 Mohammed Abdel-Raouf Arafat al-Qudwa al-Husseini. Many myths circulate about Arafat’s origins. Both Arafat’s parents were Palestinian. His mother came from Jerusalem, but his father had strong familial ties to Egypt and Arafat spent most of his formative years in Cairo. Following his mother’s death, when he was five years old, Arafat lived with a maternal uncle in Jerusalem for four years, and then returned to Cairo under the charge of an elder sister.
In 1948, aged nineteen, Yasser Arafat interrupted his civil engineering studies at the University of King Faud I (later Cairo University) to join the resistance against the emerging Jewish State in Palestine. Following the fighting, and after a short stay in Gaza, Arafat resumed his studies, becoming a prominent Palestinian student leader by 1952 and obtaining a bachelor’s degree in 1956. He also served in the Egyptian Army as a second lieutenant during the Suez campaign. Arafat then left Egypt to work in Kuwait where he established his own contracting firm. In 1959, Arafat and other Palestinian activists founded Al-Fatah, an underground movement committed to armed struggle against Israel. In 1964, he left Kuwait for Jordan now operating under the nom du guerre Abu Ammar. In the same year the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO) was founded under the sponsorship of the Arab League. Al-Fatah came to dominate the PLO by 1969. As chairman of the PLO executive committee and later Commander-in-Chief of Palestinian forces, Arafat transformed the organisation into a quasi-state institution. The PLO was later expelled from Jordan and subsequently ousted from Lebanon by Israeli forces, and relocated to Tunis, Tunisia in 1983.

Or that the Hizbolla has no reason for war against israel anymore but they still wage war.

I also know that the amount of attacks from the Hizbolla has dramatically reduced since Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon.

Or maybe the fact that some of the occurences you mentioned happend by Christian militia in Lebannon because this fraction constantly faught the muslims ?

Absolutely true, and I also know that said Christian militia was armed, trained and under direct orders of the IDF. I also know that the IDF perfectly knew what would happen and I also know that the IDF invaded that part of Beirut in violation of their own promise not to do so.
Israel as the occupyer of said land was responsible for it.

Do you consider that the Jews who got massacred by Roumanian and Ukranian milice (armed, trained and founded by the Nazis) are not a crime by Nazi Germany?

Oh, you don't care about this little INTERNAL LEBANESE affair now, don't you ?

What do you mean?

Did you know that Sirya is ruled by an opressing minority ?

Of course, like almost every of those despicable middle-east kingdoms/dictatorships, and how is that relevant?

And that Jordan was GIVEN AS A PRESENT to Sharif Hussain from the Britis, knowing he'll be controlling a majority of people much different from him ?

Of course, and how is that relevant again?
The fact that this whole region is under such an incredible mess can be easily traced to european colonialism errors, yet Israel has done the same mystakes.

You don't have the slightest idea of the tens of masacres Arabs did to the resident Jews here before and after WWII. What about the murder in Munic Olympics ? The bombing of the jews in Argentina ? The massacre of children in Maalot ? You just go read Pro-Arab propaganda and cut and paste it into your posts.

I don't see how a list of atrocities against Jews change anything I wrote in my post?
Two wrongs do not make a right maybe.

And bout the "right of nation to" was it your right to sell chechoslovakia to the Nazis ? Or Poland ?

No, it was a shame and a violation of human rights. Only the inhabitants of those lands had the rights so sell their country to the nazis, something they didn't want to do I'm quite sure.
Thanks for preaching my side

You're reallyu a true remain to the Barbaric people of Europe. The people who massacred the natives of south America, who massacred the Jews and Gypsies because racism etc. etc. etc.

Ad'hominem.
All I did was putting the right of self-determination as the holy grail of human rights. Never did I condon any kind of massacre.
So quit it, all you are trying to do is drowning the debate in fallacious claims of anti-semitism.

You are in no way better than the Swiss bankers who stole the money from murdered jews in WWII.

Another nice ad'hom, thank.
What our bankers did was absolutely outragious, how the WCJ treated Switzerland over this topic was equally as outragious.
Jewish claim on that stolen money was legite, but blackmailing our banks (by drowning the debate just like you are doing and by menacing to seize Swiss assets in the US) because they wanted to wait the result of the two independent inquiries to pay the right amount of money, instead of shelling 1.8 billion$ before any study was done just because the accusation wanted it was outragious.
Exactly like putting someone in the death row before the trial has finished.

[Dogbert]

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~samuel/feisal1.html

Read this and educate yourself about who the land belongs to.
Then read about the massacres of Arabs against jews in Israel during the 19th century when the jews weren't even armed.
You could continue educating yourself by reading how Jews were treated in the neighbouring Arab countries.

Now to continue, the declaration of the Israeli state in Israel was a UN ERROR ?! Oh, but the declaration of Jordan wasn't and accepting Sirya as the president of the UN security council is fine ha ?

I also know that the amount of attacks from the Hizbolla has dramatically reduced since Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon.

I see, so if I start by killing most of your family and then I reduce the killing and kill just one member at a time will it be ok ?

No, it was a shame and a violation of human rights. Only the inhabitants of those lands had the rights so sell their country to the nazis, something they didn't want to do I'm quite sure.

But selling our country (we exist as a nation before Islam was invented) to a nation that has only recently defined itself is ok ?
Nice way of thinking sherlock.

And this quote by you:

Yeah sure, whatever. Completely disregard Sabra and Shatila, disregard the Liberty, disregard Qana, disregard kidnapping in foreign country, disregard worldwide assassinations, disregard brutal occupation, disregard collective punishment, disregard settlements, disregard expropriation, disregard Jewish terrorists, disregard Israeli backed terrorist group abroad and so on...

Followed by these:

I don't see how a list of atrocities against Jews change anything I wrote in my post?
Two wrongs do not make a right maybe.

And yes, by reading these quotes you show your true colors. You are an Anti-semite. You choose a side to look from and ignore the rest.

[Dogbert]

If you want to learn some history about a subject you know almost nothing about, try reading this list of events:

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/timeline.html

And check this little event quote:

Switzerland, a hotbed of anti-Jewish edicts grants Jews equal rights only after threats by the United States, France and Britain: 1866

How nice...

[Vlip]

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~samuel/feisal1.html

Read this and educate yourself about who the land belongs to.

Thanks, interesting read. But how does the support of the self-proclaimed King of Syria and Iraq give any popular legitimacy?
Do you contest that in a ballot in Palestine the 1948 partition would have been refused?

Then read about the massacres of Arabs against jews in Israel during the 19th century when the jews weren't even armed.

I know all that, those were infamous terrorist acts. But how is that relevant?

You could continue educating yourself by reading how Jews were treated in the neighbouring Arab countries.

I have no illusions as to know how Jews (hell, even arabs) are treated under the brutal regime of those petty dictatorships.
Still, I fail to see the relevance?

I see, so if I start by killing most of your family and then I reduce the killing and kill just one member at a time will it be ok ?

Of course not, but claiming that Hezbollah and the Pals are same and identical is wrong. The Hezbollah is just maintaining token confrontation with Israel in a so called "support" for the Palestinian plight.
Anyhow, let's be realistic, I simply do not see anything Israel could do against the Hizbollah that wouldn't increase attacks.
You want to invade Lebanon again? You know that you'll suffer more terrorist attacks.
It's a terrible situation, but none the less it's the situation where the least people die.

But selling our country (we exist as a nation before Islam was invented) to a nation that has only recently defined itself is ok ?

Who ever asked you to sell your country?
It is a tragedy what happened to the Jewish people, the exodes, the massacres, the holocausts. If only in those time the right of self-determination had been respected, nothing of this would have happened.
Sadly, right of self-determination has a great weakness, as to know when it looses validity if a people leave the land. A day? A year? A decade? A century? A thousand years? Never?
Hard to draw the line. I, personnally consider that when a generation of people is born in said land, they have the rights to said land. As such 1976 Israel is the country of those Israelis who were born in it and the Arabs lost claim on it.
Yet the OT... it's another story, ain't it?

And yes, by reading these quotes you show your true colors. You are an Anti-semite. You choose a side to look from and ignore the rest.

I'm not. Hard to prove to you over a BB board.
But you took my quote out of contexte, it was a reply to that:

As far as Israel being a "terrorist state" goes; I'd be doing exactly what they do in their place. They're surrounded on all sides by nations and Palestinian "leaders" that wish them ill and blow up their kids and women with impunity. Chickenshits deserve whatever Israel sends them.

It was just an attempt to show that even though Arab countries have resorted to terrorism, Israel was not better.
Two wrongs do not make a right.
It's an equal condemnation of both side horrors.

Now if Israel criticism is equal to anti-semitism for you, well, I can't help you.

Let me make this clear, I know that arabs have done horrors to Jews in the past, I also know that most likely they'll continue to do so in the future. I condemn that strongly and absolutely hate terrorists who attack civilians.
BUT
I also know that jews have done horrors to the arabs in the past, I also know that most likely they'll continue to do so in the future.
I condemn that strongly and absolutely hate terrorists who attack civilians.

I'm sorry if I offended you, but I'm sick of hearing about perfect little Israel suffering from arab terrorism when in fact it's just two enemy people who fight each other with the most dirty tricks in the books.

As for being one sided, it's wrong, I try to the maximum to look from both side, I've just finished Netanyahu's book "A durable peace", some part were most interesting (the part about WB's mountain ridge being important military assets) but others just don't impress me.

Now if you still want to portray me as an anti-semite, fine, do it, it's your problem, not mine.

[Vlip]

Originally posted by Dogbert
If you want to learn some history about a subject you know almost nothing about, try reading this list of events:

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/timeline.html

And check this little event quote:

How nice...

Well, Europe's 19th century was plagged by anti-semitism, nowhere have I claimed that my country was some sort of idealistic pure virgin, far from it.

[Dogbert]

If you'd bother reading the material then there are two options:

1. Accept the fact that jews were expelled from all over the world including Arab countries and imigrated to Israel which should be theirs. While the Arabs living here (which are by far less) can return to their original countries and take whatever (lot's) of property that was taken from massacred or fleeing jews there.

2. We keep things as they are but then most countries in the world owe us all the property that belonged to massacred / fleeing jews.

I want to see if all the neighbouring countries and Europe would be so willing to give back the all the property rich jews owned there.
You want justice, let's have justice all the way !

[Dogbert]

How about this, I'll give my house in return for the land, gold and houses my family left behind when they were forced to flee Iran, Afganistan and Russia. I won't claim anything for the murders and rapes. Just property. Want to sign the deal now ?

[Dogbert]

If so, then talk to Alice too, since her family has been forced to leave some huge property in Spain during the great deportation 500 years ago.

[Vlip]

Originally posted by Dogbert
If you'd bother reading the material then there are two options:

1. Accept the fact that jews were expelled from all over the world including Arab countries and imigrated to Israel which should be theirs. While the Arabs living here (which are by far less) can return to their original countries and take whatever (lot's) of property that was taken from massacred or fleeing jews there.

2. We keep things as they are but then most countries in the world owe us all the property that belonged to massacred / fleeing jews.

I want to see if all the neighbouring countries and Europe would be so willing to give back the all the property rich jews owned there.
You want justice, let's have justice all the way !

1°/ You know, that would seem appealing.
But how can you claim that say, a palestinian whose family was living in the Israeli sea shore since the Jewish exodus has less claim on the land that Jews who have lived all over the world since then? I mean, those people lived on this land for an incredible amount of generations...

That's the difficult question of time I underlined. When do you consider that you loose your claim to the land if you leave?
I suppose you mean that because Jews lived in Israel in time X, then they can still claim that land in time X + infinity years?
Would be hard to implement, just think about Europe, if we'd do that, the whole Europe map would be covered with old borders.
I think a reasonable amount of time, is the time needed to raise a generation on said soil.
So I'd say the Jews lost their claim on their land when the arabs lived on it for a generation. And equally so, the arabs lost that claim when the Jews lived on Israel for a generation.
What's so extremist in that?

2°/ I have the somewhat impression that at least for WWII that's what happened? Of course american, UK and Israeli banks still have holocaust victims sleeping account. You might want to claim that money too. Apart from that, I don't see any other WWII asset stolen to jews that was not paid back... Care to enlighten me?

[Vlip]

How about this, I'll give my house in return for the land, gold and houses my family left behind when they were forced to flee Iran, Afganistan and Russia. I won't claim anything for the murders and rapes. Just property. Want to sign the deal now ?

So because the Iranians, Afghans and Russians were ****oles and stole you your properties and don't want to give it back, then you decide to inflict the same horrors on other people with no connection to said crimes? Interesting.

Like If my neighbour steals my room, I'm going to steal the room of another guy in the next town and kick him in the streets too...

Just remember, what you claimed yours 500 years ago, who did it belong 1000 years ago? and 1500 years ago?
That's exactly the question I'm raising, when do you draw the line?
You have to do it, if not everybody has a claim on everything.

[Dogbert]

Originally posted by Vlip

So because the Iranians, Afghans and Russians were ****oles and stole you your properties and don't want to give it back, then you decide to inflict the same horrors on other people with no connection to said crimes? Interesting.

The "Palestinians" never existed before 1930, they ARE from all the neighbouring countries.

Like If my neighbour steals my room, I'm going to steal the room of another guy in the next town and kick him in the streets too...

This has nothing to do , read answer to 1st quote. Besides, there is a lot of jewish property left in those countries.

Just remember, what you claimed yours 500 years ago, who did it belong 1000 years ago? and 1500 years ago?

The jews NEVER claimed anything in Europe or any of those countries. They EARNED it through hard work.

That's exactly the question I'm raising, when do you draw the line?
You have to do it, if not everybody has a claim on everything.

Read my last answer. I don't draw the line. What I EARNED THROUGH HARD WORK is mine.

[Vlip]

The "Palestinians" never existed before 1930, they ARE from all the neighbouring countries.

Play with semantics if you want.

So those arabs who emmigrated in "that land entity nowaday known as Israel" after the Jewish exodus, some thousand years ago, and lived there till they had to flee in 1948.
Still makes thousand years of them living there, Palestinians or not, they seem to have a claim on that land, not?

This has nothing to do , read answer to 1st quote. Besides, there is a lot of jewish property left in those countries.

I find the double standard quite appealing.

What is mine, is mine, what is yours, we shall negotiate.

Of course Jews lost their land and their properties all over the world. It's tragic, but it doesn't allow the same Jews to steal a house from an arab whose great-great-father built a century ago.
IT'S HIS OWN HARD EARNED WORK, ain't it?

Or do you claim that the arabs living in "that land entity nowaday known as Israel" were all living in stolen Jewish assets?

Read my last answer. I don't draw the line. What I EARNED THROUGH HARD WORK is mine.

And yet, if thousand years later, some people dares to build assets EARNED THROUGH HIS OWN HARD WORK, then it's still yours.
Interesting.

[Dogbert]

Are you that stupid ?
Those Arabs IMMIGRATED from their own will.
Jews were EXPELLED.

They weren't here for a thousand years, READ HISTORY, EDUCATE YOURSELF.

Like I said, we can a. make a fair exchange by letting them have all the things the rest of the orld owes us, or claim what's ours from the rest of the world.

MAKE YOUR CHOICE and stop whining because my history older than yours.

[Vlip]

Those Arabs IMMIGRATED from their own will.
Jews were EXPELLED.

And as such you take the right to inflict the same evil on the descendants of those who immigrated there?

They weren't here for a thousand years, READ HISTORY, EDUCATE YOURSELF.

Yeah sure, when the Jews left this region, that place was totally empty from any people till the Jews suddenly decided to reclaim it in the 20th century, right.

Like I said, we can a. make a fair exchange by letting them have all the things the rest of the orld owes us, or claim what's ours from the rest of the world.

That's going to make a Pal feel better how?
Your deal just means that you let the world keep what you left by leaving. But why should the Arabs who lived in what is now Israel (and especially the OT) find that deal anything other than just theft? They won't get anything from the world, and you know it.

I find it hard to believe that Jews would so happily inflict to others what they suffered for centuries.

MAKE YOUR CHOICE and stop whining because my history older than yours.

Totally irrelevant, but if you really wanna know, my ancestors established themselves in the region I'm living in something like 50'000 years ago. There is even a museum a few km from where I live with the oldest conserved brain in the world. 3000 years old.

As I said, totally irrelevant.