Bowling for Columbine - revisited

[MultimediaMan]

Zokes...name one "Fact" Michael Moore put in BFC that was actually correct and in context.

Hint: You can't find one, other than people being at places...but even then, the times and timings of the people purported to be in those places have been distorted in futherance of the director's point of view.

Now the Real Question: Does anybody here think BFC is truly a documentary?

[Wulfman]

depending on what standards you set.

if I look at most newscasts atm and judge BFC by their standards: yes.*

by the "classic" definition of a documentation: no.

mfg
wulfman

PS.: example: do you really think "embedded journalists" "documented" the war?

[ZokesPro]

Originally posted by MultimediaMan
Zokes...name one "Fact" Michael Moore put in BFC that was actually correct and in context.

Hint: You can't find one, other than people being at places...but even then, the times and timings of the people purported to be in those places have been distorted in futherance of the director's point of view.

Now the Real Question: Does anybody here think BFC is truly a documentary?

Here's ONE.

On April 19 1995, he mentioned that the Oklahoma City building was bombed killing 168 people, is that false?

So you're telling me that this was distorted just so we can see his point of view? Riiiiight. I think you're more mad at the fact that this movie directly affects you and your country (and mine too) and your afriad to admit it. I have plenty more FACTS, want to hear them? I have all day and I can watch that movie as many times as I want, AND I can prove every fact so what's the deal here?

You asked for a "fact" and voila, I showed you a "fact". Nuff said.

[Kooldino]

Originally posted by ZokesPro
Here's ONE.

On April 19 1995, he mentioned that the Oklahoma City building was bombed killing 168 people, is that false?

Probably not, but that's pretty public knowledge. He wouldn't be so foolish as to distort something so obvious.

So you're telling me that this was distorted just so we can see his point of view? Riiiiight. I think you're more mad at the fact that this movie directly affects you and your country (and mine too) and your afriad to admit it.

???

I have plenty more FACTS, want to hear them? I have all day and I can watch that movie as many times as I want, AND I can prove every fact so what's the deal here?

You can't prove every fact...some of them are PROVEN not to be.

[Wombat]

Wouldn't splicing a man's speech together to make him say sentences he never spoke qualify as falsifying a fact?

[Wulfman]

Originally posted by Wombat
Wouldn't splicing a man's speech together to make him say sentences he never spoke qualify as falsifying a fact?

source?

mfg
wulfman

[Wombat]

Originally posted by ZokesPro
Here's ONE.

On April 19 1995, he ... bombed ... 168 people, is that false?

So | this was distorted just so we can see | this movie. | You and your country (and mine too) | admit it. I have plenty more FACTS, want to hear them? I have all day and I can watch that movie as many times as I want, AND I can | deal.

You asked for a | show. Nuff said.

That's really what Zokes said. I went to the Michael Moore School of "Truth."

[Wombat]

Originally posted by Wulfman
source?

mfg
wulfman

The post that started this thread.

[ZokesPro]

Originally posted by Kooldino
Probably not, but that's pretty public knowledge. He wouldn't be so foolish as to distort something so obvious.

MultimediaMan said that I couldn't fine ONE fact, yet I did, so what's the problem? Yeah sure it's public knowledge but he did say that Micheal Moore distorts everything, yet this comment wasn't distorted.

I know what you guys are trying to get at and it's getting old. Sure my so called "quote" wasn't EXACTLY what he said in the movie but still. He did mention something that wasn't distorted or falsified, what more do you want?

[paulcs]

All documentary films come from a point of view. The first documentary, Nanook of the North, had staged scenes. The filmmaker, Robert Joseph Flaherty, believed you had to lie to tell the truth. I'm not sure I buy that, but it is the starting point of the genre.

Documentaries with narrations have particularly strong points of view. Bowling for Columbine practically had a host: a celebrity filmmaker who is part social critic, part stand-up comedian, and part Alan Funt. I seriously doubt Michael Moore intended any pretense of objectivity. Objectivity wasn't the point. Moore started off with a thesis, took numerous potshots at an easy target, twisted his original thesis 180 degrees, and ended up saying something entirely different.

A propanda film is not suppose to make you think. It does that for you. To my mind, Bowling for Columbine started off with the answers, subverted them, and ended with the questions. That's the opposite of what propaganda does.

Paul

[Gurm]

It started with no answers, twisted the truth, lied a lot, and ended with entirely unrelated questions.

It doesn't make me think. It makes me vomit.

If it weren't illegal to kill people, I'd find a way to eliminate Michael Moore from the gene pool.

I'm sure that he'd get some twisted satisfaction from making someone hate him so much, but you know what? I don't hate him. I just think that for the betterment of mankind, his genes should be eliminated before he breeds.

- Gurm

[ZokesPro]

Even if Micheal Moore never existed, there would (and actually there are!) still be people like him saying relatively the same things he did. (but obviously not in the same manner and not about EVERYTHING he talks about either)

And what I find particlularly funny is that it's your American ideals (the ones that were put inside your head from the very first day you started school) that makes you reply the way you all are. From the moment I said something in this thread I knew it would be a lost cause. I knew that you'd all reply the way you did yet I persisted. (I must be crazy) And I can almost guarantee that if you were all born and raised in different countries (that had different ideals of course) than maybe, just maybe you'd see the United States and most importantly it's ideals, in a different manner than the way you all do.

Also, it wasn't Micheal Moore and his stupid movie that made me say the things I've said. I've been hearing the same relative message from all sorts of different groups, countries and people all my life, but just now am I mature and knowledgable enough to understand the message. (or what's going on, however you want to look at it) But it is pointless to argue any furthur, your American ideals prevent you from seeing all there is to see and your so brained washed that you'll do and say anything to protect it, tis normal, that's the way they want you to think! (and as per usual your all gonna say that im crazy, that I'm spewing out pure bullshit, but I don't care)

In short, the best way I can describe it is that your all in the Matrix living your lives not really knowing what goes past what you see, and I am not. (I'm still stuck in this shitty system but at least I'm aware of what it is and what it's doing to people)

But don't hate me for what I have to say, because I do have the freedom of speech! If you guys think that I'm spewing out bullshit than that's your right to think that, and I respect and understand what you guys have to say. Just don't come down on me for what I have to say, because that would be taking awat my freedom of speech.

Edit: I'm not anti-American in any way, but I do think that your ideals need to be changed, otherwise as a society it'll only get worse.

[Gurm]

I don't understand how you can possibly think that we all share these so-called "American Ideals".

And I fail to understand how you can justify dishonesty in the name of making a point.

If I walk into a room filled with people and say "My name is Shiela, I'm a 47-year-old woman, and I just entered menopause!" then nobody is going to listen to a ****ING word I say after that, because I'm clearly lying.

I don't CARE what Moore wants us to think about. I have already thought about it, and I guarantee you that I've thought about it more clearly, more rationally, and with greater depth than Moore is capable of.

But if your "non-American Ideals" force you to defend lying as an acceptable practice in order to effect the sort of reaction that you want, and as an acceptable force for social change...

Just answer me this question. SIMPLE question.

Is lying ok?

Is slandering ok?

Is purposely deceiving people ok?

I'm not asking you if it's justifiable. I'm asking you if, in your little world, it's acceptable to routinely lie to people and slander other people?

- Gurm

[Taz-Matt]

Originally posted by Kooldino
You can't prove every fact... some of them are PROVEN not to be.

If some of them are proven not to be, then it leaves most of them proven... (why play with the words Dino? I'm able too but it's pointless! )

Originally posted by Gurm
Is lying ok?
Is slandering ok?
Is purposely deceiving people ok?

I know you asked this question to Zokes and I'm sure he'll respond too so I'll go with my own answer for now.

Never should we lie, never should we slander, never should we decieve people on purpose! But ain't that the way the government is acting? Ain't that the way the media is acting? Ain't that the way major corporations are acting? They're all doing that, right now, as we speak and I know you are aware of that (If not, let's end it on this because we don't live on the same planet)! There are corrupted people almost everywhere and if you include Moore in them, fine, I understand your point since you're sure he does all that and maybe it's true. But I don't think he ONLY lies, slanders and decieve on purpose. If that would be so, I bet this movie would be banned from america just like some other movies like "Takedown", a hacker movie (true story) that shown that the government and major corporations don't have any respect of our privacy and that if you are the one making the mess but you are in the major corp or in the government, no problems, we'll blame the hacker who found out what he found about us before he shows it to everybody and everything will be fine. He'll look like a liar, he'll look like a slander against the government, he'll look like someone who wants to decieve us on purpose. That is the way it works.

This scenario is not the same thaugh with Moore since he only talks about what he believes is going on and most american people just won't believe him so no one has to intervene.

Now tell me that you believe all of what your government says, tell me that you believe all of what the major corporations say and tell me that you believe in everything that the media says and I'll tell you that you're lying to yourself so if you are listening anyone of these three without questionning everything they say like you do with Michael Moore, then you lie to yourself and you are misinformed so your point would be unvaluable from the start. But I won't say that you are misinformed because I seem to understand that you have a different point of view on the things he says but you don't seem to understand that we can have a different opinion (and you OR I could be right). And in this case I think we seem to be all right since you say there are some lies and things like that and we say that there are some truth... 50-50, take yours, I'll take mine and let's get done with it ok?

Other people like Noam Chomsky have written things on this :
- Rogue States : In his newest book, Chomsky holds the world’s superpowers to their own standards of the rule of law and finds them appallingly lacking. Rogue States is the latest result of his tireless efforts to measure the world’s superpowers by their own professed standards and to hold them responsible for the indefensible actions they commit in the name of democracy and human rights.

- The new military humanism : Was the war over Kosovo really a multi-national effort waged solely for humanitarian reasons? Or was it the establishment of a new world order headed by self-proclaimed "enlightened states" with enough military might to ignore international law and world opinion? In this book, begun after the NATO bombs started dropping in Yugoslavia and finished as the defeated Serbian forces were leaving the Kosovo province, Chomsky gives us an overview of a changing world order with "might makes right" as its foundation.

This last one explains really well what Moore is talking about. NoFX has also lyrics on this, more perticularly the song "The Decline" which you can read the lyrics here and in which you'll find these lines "Start with assumption, That a million people are smart, Smarter than one", and that's how it works right now!

There are a lot of people, bands, associations, students, elders, workers, writers, etc. that said the same thing for a while now. So if he's wrong then a lot of people are and if we are all wrong, then I am ready to accept it...

But when I also see web sites like "Bands against Bush : Bands Against Bush is an international resistance movement advocating the use of music, art and culture to create a more just and equitable world", "ZMag : Weapons of Mass Destruction, State Terrorism and September 11, 1973 & 2001, Stealth Militarism, Incendiary Bombs & Inflammatory Lies, Patrolling the U.S. Back-Country", "ISM (International Solidarity Movement) united by hatred of oppression", "Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting (FAIR) : national media watch group offering well-documented criticism of media bias and censorship since 1986. FAIR advocates for greater diversity in the press and exposes neglected news stories. FAIR believes that structural reform is ultimately needed to break up the dominant media conglomerates, establish independent public broadcasting and promote strong non-profit sources of information. www.fair.org", "Disinformation : The gateway to the underground - news, politics, conspiracy and weirdness. www.disinfo.com", etc. Name it, they're all there talking around the same issues.

That said, I still don't think Michael Moore ONLY lies, slanders and decieves on purpose. If he would than I think half of the world would be, including the government, major corporations and the media.

I respect your opinion, as long as you respect ours!

Matt.

[ZokesPro]

Gurm, since I'm tired of this discussion, since it's getting us nowhere, (and cause I still wanna be friends with all of you despite my opinions) I'll quote a band, called NoFX, in their song "The Decline" (as Taz-Matt ponted out).

"Be the victim of your own design."

I don't care what's said beyond this, obviously it doesn't matter anyways.

- ZokesPro