Don't you love Jesus?

[KvHagedorn]

Maybe I'm confused but "generosity", while a valid virtue, isn't the true message of Christmas, is it?

It is an easy one to grasp for most people. Perhaps "selflessness" would be more to the point. A baby is a selfish being, and the sooner children can be taught that giving of oneself is a good thing, the better. The persona of Santa is one of a nice old grandfather who is finds joy in giving. He is not Mommy or Daddy.. he isn't obligated to give in any way. He just does it because he finds joy in the joy of others. Believe it or not, I don't think this message is lost on most kids.

As to the true message of Christmas, it is found in John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Is this not generosity? The tradition of gift-giving in the mundane sense was begun by the Magi, and it is simply a part of the festival.

[schmosef]

It's definitely part of it. Jesus' generosity during his lifetime are very much a part of who he was. This generosity was not of the monetary or physical possession sort, but rather that of selfless giving of self.

And isn't that part of the Easter message?

Isn't the Christmas message about brotherhood, the fulfillment of the messianic prophesy and the anticipation of the coming salvation?

[Jessterw]

Don't be so paranoid JW, we don't want you.
Furthermore, I'm only asking because I'm trying to understand. If you don't have an answer, that's fine, but don't start accusing me of things.

I'm sorry, isn't it one of your ten commandments too? It's not me who was obsessing. According to both our books, it was God.

And I've explained the Jewish rational for being so vigilant about it.

I say it's a graven image as soon as it's made. You say it has to be worshipped before it becomes a graven image.

So let me ask another question. Do all Christian sects have saints?

Paranoid? I was simply stating that the tone of your questions is one of superiority. I also stated that it may not have been intended. So I'm not accusing you of anything and there was no offense intended.

My comment on obsessing over images was related to the comment on Coke and Santa.

I understand the Jewish stance, and several of us have attempted to explain the Chrisitan, or at least one such, stance on the same issue. I don't think we can't explain it any more simply than we have.

No, most Christian sects do not have saints, but several do recognize the importance of them in relation to the history of Christianity and Catholocism.

[Jessterw]

And isn't that part of the Easter message?

Isn't the Christmas message about brotherhood, the fulfillment of the messianic prophesy and the anticipation of the coming salvation?

Yes and yes. Both, however, are a celebration of Christ and all that he represents.

[KvHagedorn]

One of the ideas of the reformation I think was to get away from graven imagery of any kind, such as shrines and madonnas and such. The Russian Orthodox Church is perhaps worse than the Catholics in this respect, with their religious icons. I doubt that any Catholic or Orthodox Christian with any sense actually worships these objects, but I can see why they might be taken as graven images. I doubt that the cross or form of a fish or other symbols of Christianity can really be classified as graven images, though, any more than a star of David might be.

[schmosef]

I don't think a picture or a crucifix or even a statue is necessarily a graven image. Now, if someone were to carve some statue that was supposed to embody the spirit of God in any way, and we were expected to bow down before this statue as such, that would be the sort of thing God would frown upon. If some confused persons wish to pray to artifacts as though they were the embodiment of God Himself, that's very sad, and I can see how some who have been converted recently from idolatry would attach themselves to crucifixes and such in this way, but I never have, and I don't think most mainstream Christians are so mistaken.

As to Santa being a graven image that children worship, I think you are way off base there.

Maybe you don't know what a graven image is?

No one thinks that the graven image is the god itself!!!

It's a token to the god. A way of pleasing the god. And a channel to get the god's attention. Sometimes, they may have believed that the god in question have magic properties to the graven image. But no one believed that the god itself was contained in it.

The Hebrew who made the golden calf didn't think that they had "made a god". They made a graven image that was a common manifestation of some local god, El I'd guess.

Rather than telling me I'm "off base", why don't tell me where my argument is flawed.

If you find the subject matter too offensive to participate constructively, don't.

[KvHagedorn]

Maybe you don't know what a graven image is?

No one thinks that the graven image is the god itself!!!

It's a token to the god. A way of pleasing the god. And a channel to get the god's attention. Sometimes, they may have believed that the god in question have magic properties to the graven image. But no one believed that the god itself was contained in it.

"An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee." (Exodus 20:24)

Is not this altar then a graven image, according to your definition?

[KvHagedorn]

Rather than telling me I'm "off base", why don't tell me where my argument is flawed.

If you find the subject matter too offensive to participate constructively, don't.

I already did that. Don't get all pissy.

You are off base because neither I no anyone else I have even known has prayed to Santa, and certainly not as if he were the Almighty, nor have they thought of him as anyone other than a mythical kindly old gentleman who embodies the joy of giving.

[Nowhere]

I don't think a picture or a crucifix or even a statue is necessarily a graven image. Now, if someone were to carve some statue that was supposed to embody the spirit of God in any way, and we were expected to bow down before this statue as such, that would be the sort of thing God would frown upon. If some confused persons wish to pray to artifacts as though they were the embodiment of God Himself, that's very sad, and I can see how some who have been converted recently from idolatry would attach themselves to crucifixes and such in this way, but I never have, and I don't think most mainstream Christians are so mistaken.

As to Santa being a graven image that children worship, I think you are way off base there.

But OTOH there's strong cult of relics in many places.

Also, I don't think schmosef is off base when he talks about children praying to Santa. Yes, you can't compare that to "real" prayers of concious adults, however...I don't think children pray to God in much different way.

BTW schmosef, are you sure that Jewish children don't "pray" (using the "definition" above) to Santa?

[Nowhere]

...
I still think you are trying to imply that the rules established by Judaism are what all others should be judged against. Which is fine if it is your belief, but, whether implied or not, there is a tone that says, "my religion is better than yours". Again, it may or may not be intended, but it's there.

I also don't understand the obsessing over the image of things, when it is the message that matters.

I must agree that I also sense the message of superiority...however I ask myslef not only how concious it is on part of schmosef, but also...how justified it is. (well, I wouldn't know, don't know enough people of Jewish faith)

One wonders if people who shallowed (you can say that in English in opposition to "deeper thought"?) the message of any religion were of the kind that voluntarily (or almost) converted to Christianity, leaving behind those who cultivated different, "better"(?) values.

[TransformX]

BTW schmosef, are you sure than Jewish children don't "pray" (using the "definition" above) to Santa?

I can't say much about the rest of the world, but Israeli kids sure don't cause we don't celebrate Christmas here.

[Brian Ellis]

Talk about threads that make mountains out of molehills. Getting back to the original subject, the "statues" are merely commercial images in execrable taste, to the extent that I find them somewhat offensive. They are no worse or better than the images sold in Lourdes of Mary standing in the grotto. If unintelligent people get comfort from them, that's their problem. Religion doesn't come into it - all religions have got distorted from their original concepts as they have evolved back to ritual heathenism. For example, the link from Astarte to Aphrodite/Venus to Mary is evident and early Christianity had no notion of Mary-worship. In fact, possibly the worst distortion in most Christian sects is the way the concept of the priesthood of all believers has gone back to the ritualisation of priests set aside and "ordained" by the Church. From this point of view, perhaps the Society of Friends (Quakers) are nearest in ideas to the true 1st c Church.

[schmosef]

"An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee." (Exodus 20:24)

Is not this altar then a graven image, according to your definition?

my definition?

do you really believe that the definition of a graven IMAGE requires that one believe that a god exists within the IMAGE of the god?

no one prays "to the alter" or "through the alter". no one believes that the alter itself has any special properties. i think you're being intentionally ignorant on that issue.

[TransformX]

Speaking of graven images, some Jews (especially religious ones) do have graven images.
A well known one is the Rabbi of Lubavitch - Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson who died and who's followers still believe to be the messiah (riiight... He'll raise from his grave like in the evil-dead series and be some kind of a zombie-messiah!)
Other religious people fill their houses with pictures of different rabbis (both alive and dead) and sometime visit graves of great rabbis. I (and some smart religious people) find it VERY wrong because 1. You worship a person instead of god, 2. you're bothering the dead.
The second graven image and true sacrilage is the people who pray TO the wailing wall. Going there to pray to god is cool as it's the closest thing to god's most sacred place on earth where it is believed he used to visit, but praying TO the wall is pure simple paganism.

[schmosef]

I doubt that the cross or form of a fish or other symbols of Christianity can really be classified as graven images, though, any more than a star of David might be.

Come off it KvH. Somehow, you're put off by my questions and you're just trying to throw things back in my face. You're not being constructive at all. The Star of David symbol doesn't exist in nature. It's not even close to something that could be considered a graven image because: a) it's not an image of anything; and b) there is no god or person that is or was ever believed to be manifest by it.

Let's take the fish symbol. I agree that by itself it's completely innocuous. But at some point in the future, someone could come across it and not know what it meant, and think that it was some sort of image to be worshiped. Sounds like I'm stretching it, but that's how the pagans did it. They'd come across some foreign image, piece a few ideas together, and suddenly they'd have a new god to revere.