Target Iran?

[Dr Mordrid]

Yup. The characters in The Incredibles were more "credible" than most real humans I run into, which when you think about it is really sad

Dr. Mordrid

[Brian Ellis]

No offense intended, but I also think that isolating yourself as you have might have parted you a bit too much from the real world, Brian.

I think not. Before retiring I lived in Switzerland for 35 years and this is one of the most conservative countries in Europe, yet one with what you would call "liberal" ideals. It's only a few years ago that women got the vote for all issues, but the death penalty (except for high treason in time of war) was abolished in some cantons in the 19th century. I believe the last person executed for murder may have been in the 1930s, resulting in one of the lowest murder rates in Europe. I was brought up in a very conservative, bourgeois, nominally Christian, family. My eyes were opened to human plights in the early 1950s but I remained staunchly conservative. I started studying religion in the mid-50s and my first revolt away from my traditional background was when I realised that the Church (all established sects thereof) was the anithesis of Jesus' teachings and I had great internal conflicts at that time as I started to question my background. I was closely involved with Westminster College, Cambridge, which was (is?) the seminary for the Presbyterian Church in England and I received much help from the Principal, Rt. Rev. Dr MacLeod and the minister of the P. Church in Cambridge, Rev. A. Cooper. It was between 1955 and 1957, when I left Cambridge, that I re-formed my moral code to ± what it is today, although I remained an active member of the Church for another 12 years. During this time I was ordained a deacon and was "tried" before a Kirk Session because I dared question their judgement about what they were doing (or, rather, not doing) for the youth of the parish. I was an active member of the Scots Kirk in Lausanne for several years but finally left a year or so after a new minister was elected, when all he was interested in was cultivating the rich members of the congregation to justify a massive increase of his stipend. He was as Christian as my dog! OK, personal my moral code has evolved somewhat since then, but it is still based on Christ's teachings, even though I would be a hypocrite to call myself Christian now. In addition, since then, I have had the privilege of travelling a lot in countries of many cultures, mainly in Europe, N/Central America, Asia and Africa and have learnt that there is a lot to appreciate in the variety of cultures I have encountered in over 40 countries (plus 24 of your contiguous States). They say that travel broadens the mind and I find this true.

So, no, It is not the insularity of this island that has caused me to be what I am.

By the way, if I seem ultra-conservative to you and others it might just be for the very purpose of balance. When everyone seems to agree too readily upon something they don't really understand, it bothers me.

Is this an admission you are a troll on this forum?

[lowlifecat]

Regarding the treatement of women in Iran and how it relates to nukes: this is a much deeper issue that can't be isolated to iran. It affects the whole region: from africa, eastern europe, and most if not all of asia.

Pakistan, India and China all have nukes and have a shoddy record of abuse to women. I don't see anyone here on the forum crying foul over that. This leads me to believe that this is another attempt at islam bashing by our regular islamophobes. Hey, if the oppurtunity is there...

What strikes me as a little strange is that the US is going after Iran more aggressivly than Korea. Could it be because Iran has a whole load of Oil and korea doesn't? hmmmm...

/meow

[schmosef]

Pakistan, India and China all have nukes and have a shoddy record of abuse to women. I don't see anyone here on the forum crying foul over that. This leads me to believe that this is another attempt at islam bashing by our regular islamophobes. Hey, if the oppurtunity is there...

Neither Pakistan, India, nor China have made it a foreign policy objective to "wipe Israel off the map."

If you think I'm bashing Islam then debate me on point. You know you can't.

[schmosef]

What strikes me as a little strange is that the US is going after Iran more aggressivly than Korea. Could it be because Iran has a whole load of Oil and korea doesn't? hmmmm...

Could be... or could it be that Iran has a foreign policy objective to export terrorism and NK doesn't?

hmmmm...

[Brian Ellis]

Could it be because Iran has a whole load of Oil and korea doesn't? hmmmm...

You may think that. I couldn't possibly comment!

[Umfriend]

Regarding the treatement of women in Iran and how it relates to nukes: this is a much deeper issue that can't be isolated to iran. It affects the whole region: from africa, eastern europe, and most if not all of asia.

Pakistan, India and China all have nukes and have a shoddy record of abuse to women. I don't see anyone here on the forum crying foul over that. This leads me to believe that this is another attempt at islam bashing by our regular islamophobes. Hey, if the oppurtunity is there...

What strikes me as a little strange is that the US is going after Iran more aggressivly than Korea. Could it be because Iran has a whole load of Oil and korea doesn't? hmmmm...

/meow

Aside from what Schmo said, I would like to add that:
1. Pakistan is an Islamic country with nukes so I do not see how discussing Iran as is done here can be seen as Islam-bashing as opposed to Iran-bashing
2. Pakistans law and law enforcement regarding woman has been discussed here and I do think the sentiment on the matter was the same.
3. It may not be isolated to Iran, but he, Iran happens to be on-topic right now
4. The US (and some EU countries) have actually [/i]fought[i] N-Korea for 3 years and have never been "easy" on them since even when they did not have any nukes. I'd say N-Korea has been treated quite a bit harser so far than has Iran.

Me, I am not at all decided on the matter yet. Having said that, given that Iran simply is not a decent democracy, has limited freedom of religion, speech and assembly and does not even meet my minimum test on the seperation of "church"/religion and state, I would probably give them the penalty of doubt in this matter.

[Gurm]

What strikes me as a little strange is that the US is going after Iran more aggressivly than Korea. Could it be because Iran has a whole load of Oil and korea doesn't? hmmmm...

No, it could be because North Korea is China's problem. And we're actually AFRAID of China.

[Gurm]

Pakistan, India and China all have nukes and have a shoddy record of abuse to women. I don't see anyone here on the forum crying foul over that. This leads me to believe that this is another attempt at islam bashing by our regular islamophobes. Hey, if the oppurtunity is there...

No. It's "crazy nutjob bashing". Iran is run by crazy people. Crazy people should not have nukes.

Now, let's back up a step as well - I don't think Pakistan or India should have nukes either, but that's over and done with. Can't put the genie back in the bottle on that one, but in retrospect whoever allowed THAT to happen was sleeping on the job as well!

As for China - what, exactly, do you propose we might DO about China? China does what China wants to do. There isn't a force on earth capable of stopping them, and they know it.

[KvHagedorn]

No. It's "crazy nutjob bashing". Iran is run by crazy people. Crazy people should not have nukes.

Now, let's back up a step as well - I don't think Pakistan or India should have nukes either, but that's over and done with. Can't put the genie back in the bottle on that one, but in retrospect whoever allowed THAT to happen was sleeping on the job as well!

:cough: slick willie :cough:

No one is complaining about Pakistan's nukes at the moment because Pakistan is run by a fairly reasonable guy at the moment. When and if there are elections that result in an Islamofascist regime there, scary things might quickly happen. Why would people vote Islamofascists in? Fear, of course.

[schmosef]

Regarding the treatement of women in Iran and how it relates to nukes: this is a much deeper issue that can't be isolated to iran. It affects the whole region: from africa, eastern europe, and most if not all of asia.

Pakistan, India and China all have nukes and have a shoddy record of abuse to women. I don't see anyone here on the forum crying foul over that. This leads me to believe that this is another attempt at islam bashing by our regular islamophobes. Hey, if the oppurtunity is there...

What strikes me as a little strange is that the US is going after Iran more aggressivly than Korea. Could it be because Iran has a whole load of Oil and korea doesn't? hmmmm...

/meow

hmmmm...

let's see...

Egypt has come out against Iran developing nukes and so has Saudi Arabia. Neither of their statements mentioned China, India, or Pakistan so I guess they must be islamophobes too?

llc, so far you've done little more than troll. Why not participate in the discussion? If you have something to say, say it. If all you're going to do is blindly act as an apologist for any Islamic naiton's foreign or domestic policy then expect to be called on it.

[Dr Mordrid]

There are a lot of middle eastern nations more than a little nervous about Iran developing nukes but not for reasons obvious to most Westerners.

This goes way beyond the usual generic-Musim vs. Israel crap. You also have Sunni vs. Shia, Persian vs. Arab, Turk vs. Kurd, everyone vs. the Palesatinians, Russian vs. Chechen and on and on.

Bottom line if Iran goes nuke then so will everyone else in the region for any number of ethnic reasons, and sooner or later someone will drop the hammer to everyones detriment.

Better to take care of matters now than to let it escalate into that kind of nightmare, even if it means a major confrontation with Irans Mullahs.

Will this piss some people in the region off? Perhaps not as much as you'd think. Irans Persians and many of their neighbors don't really like each other for many reasons, which could put a lot of pressure on Iran to make the obvious concession: let Russia process their fuel in order to prevent a confrontation with them and the West.

Best idea to come out of that region in ages, as long as the Russians, EU, US and others make sure the security is up to the task.

Dr. Mordrid

[Brian Ellis]

Let the Israeli process their fuel

[Gurm]

Iran won't settle for letting anyone else process their fuel, because they don't WANT nuclear POWER. They want BOMBS.

[schmosef]

So I had the TV on this morning while I was getting ready to leave for the office and it just happened to be tuned to CNN and they were doing a very important piece on the Golden Globes awards and in between segments they had an obviously not important (because it was so rushed) piece on the run up to the UNSC meeting to discuss Iran and they had someone, I believe it was Jack Straw or possibly an aide giving some background that I thought was interesting.

What he said was that Iran had been found (I assume by the IAEA) to be in non-compliance with the non-proliferation treaty (I think he said that happened in November) and now the onus was on Iran, not the other way around, to prove that they were not developing a nuclear weapons program.

That's what he said, or at least what I got out of it while I was doing my morning rituals. Thankfully, CNN has their priorities straight and went right back to laying praise on Brokeback Mountain for its portrayal of gay cowboys and Felicity Huffman for her portrayal of a transvestite undergoing gender reassignment.

Now as far as the issue of the non-proliferation treaty goes. I wasn't aware that Iran had signed it. Or perhaps they didn't? Is it binding against all countries? How does that work? Anyone know? I'm too lazy to go look it up for myself.