Gun Registration through IRS!!!!!!!

[Gurm]

Jake,

You are and aren't getting it.

Point #1:

Your "threefold division of power". I sincerely hope this is something you made up, right? I mean, to think that the police are the equals of the courts and the legislature is just plain silly! That makes your country... wait for it... a POLICE STATE! So I'm hoping you either got that wrong or have overstated the power possessed by the police.

Point #2:

It's not that guns are "linked to our personal freedoms". It's that we are VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY attached to our freedoms. And no, I don't think anyone in Europe has a clear understanding of exactly the kind of personal liberties we in America have. I'm not going to start in on the "we're better than you are" thing, because there are a lot of upsides to your system. But you just can't understand our level of freedom until you've experienced it firsthand, or at least done some thorough looking into it.

Let's put it this way...

In this country, if someone enters my home without my permission, I CAN KILL HIM. LEGALLY. I don't know the law in other countries but I'm willing to bet that it's not quite so lenient.

I can say anything I want - even if it offends someone else. Even if it HURTS someone else. With very few exceptions (slander, defamation of character) I can say ANYTHING. I can even say that Bill Clinton is a child-molesting crossdresser. It's not true (at least we HOPE not, he's bad enough as it is), but I can say it.

I can DO anything I want, unless that action hurts someone besides myself, or violates laws (no destruction of property other than my own, no public nudity in any area other than New Orleans, etc.).

We had a topic on USENET about this a while back, and the Europeans on the thread, as a group, just didn't get it (and I know I'm generalizing, cope folks).

The thing about guns is just one of the freedoms we're very passionate about. You'd get an equally vitriolic response if you started coming out in favor of censorship.

That's one of the reasons many dislike Al Gore. His wife is a censorship NUTCASE. The only correct way to address her is "Tippy Gore, sniff my anal vapours!"

I am having trouble explaining it because it's just SUCH a FUNDAMENTAL concept in the American mindset.

You can't take our guns - not because we're so fond of using them, but because we have the FREEDOM to use them. And if you take that away from us, who knows what you'll take away next?

Many European governments have "freedom". Unless there's a problem, or a situation in which it is helpful NOT to allow that freedom. Then you'd be amazed at how fast that freedom dissolves.

In America, we are GUARANTEED freedoms. They may not be abridged (to handily misquote a famous document) by anyone - no person, agency, or government may take them from us.

Yeah, we're allowed to have Nazis and communists and other horrible people here (KKK members, etc.) - because people here are allowed to feel any way they want, and act any way they want. Yes, sometimes those people act out how they feel - at which point they are locked up if they have violated laws. But they're allowed to talk about it, publish it, even shout it from the rooftops if they want.

*sigh* I'm rambling, and I'll probably edit this heavily later. I hope I'm helping you understand this.

- Gurm

------------------
Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[SteveC]

I think Jake's a little on his own here, so I'm gonna join in and agree that although I know little on how life is in the USA (apart from what I see in the media), we in the United States of Europe get along quite well without guns. I don't know if making guns more freely available would cut crime (a robber points a gun at you, you point one back - stale mate? I don't think so) there would be more and more people out there who would reckon that with the power of a firearm they can do as they please. I say that there should be no need for Joe Public to have acess to a fiream.

Gurm - I think that it's absolutely disgraceful and terrible (I can't infact find the right word that describes how I feel!!) that you can LEGALLY kill someone for entering your property wuthout permission! Could you honestly say that you could live with yourself if you shot someone in cold blood just because s/he entered you property and you didn't know their intent?? My god - if someone did that here, they would be banged up for life without a shadow of a doubt! Your other comments are about the same everywhere here, I believe.

I also have to say that in this country if someone calls 999 (or 112 ) then the call will be responded to. If it wasnt' there'd be massive outrage! Hell, all you need to do in this country is dial a 'silent nine' where you hit the number '9' and then nothing else. If you don't respond, then the police can be at your location within minutes. That's how the police force should be. I believe that if everyone had access to weapons, then the police wouldn't have a chance.

And I don;t think that we live a blinkered, non-free life here in europe. If any government in europe said that guns were readily availble (even with a licence), then there would be massive outrage! And the other governments in europe would make that country reverse its decision.

Europe may seem 'tame' to all you americans, but give me our relative safetly over your so-called freedom any day!

(I don't want to contribute to a third world war here, just voicing my 'FREE' speech. After all - this server is hosted in the states!!! )

------------------
Cheers,
Steve

"Life is what we make of it, yet most of us just fake"

edit - typo

[This message has been edited by SteveC (edited 05 October 2000).]

[SteveC]

hmmm... I think 'mind-boggling' would be the right word...

------------------
Cheers,
Steve

"Life is what we make of it, yet most of us just fake"

[Thundrchez]

Sorry to rattle your cage, Jake. This reminds me of a scene from the movie <u>Men In Black</u>. The "Bug" alien spaceship just crash lands into a redneck's pickup truck. The redneck steps out of his house with his shotgun to see what is going on, and he sees the remains of his truck in a large crater. He approaches the crater...
Bug: Give me your weapon.
Redneck: You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.
Bug: Your proposal is acceptable.
And then the bug promptly kills the redneck and gets his gun.

Although humourous in the movie, it is an accurate reflection of many american's attitudes. Many of the other american MURCers have chimed in and done a very good job of explaining the situation in the states. This registration can only be interpreted as the first step to removing the guns from the hands of law abiding citizens, but leaving it in the hands of the criminals. Part of being american is the right to bear arms; that is one of the basic founding principles of usa. We're not going to give it up without a fight.

If I don't have a gun, the only thing I can do is wait for the police to arrive to perform the autoposy on my dead body. I don't want to wait that long. Here is an actual circumstance that happened to a girl I know.

Some teenage punk barely past puberty pulled a knife on my friend (female), and "kindly" requested all of her money. She didn't have but $1 on her at the time, and she knew that he wouldn't be satisfied with only that so she said that she had more in the car. The braintrust with a knife followed her to her car. She reached under the seat of her car, got her gun, and pulled it on the wannabe bad-@$$. He promptly wet himself, and then ran away. If my friend did not have a gun, she would likely have been sliced pretty good, and maybe she would have died.

Guns don't kill people; people kill people. An armed society is a polite society. If you knew that everybody else was armed, you would have sense enough not to do something stupid lest you become an official darwin award winner.

In the letter my senator wrote me, he continued with "Many in Congress believe gun control is the solution to our Nation's crime problem. I think it is the wrong approach. The most effective way to combat violent crime is to enact strict penalties to punish those who use firearms unlawfully. I will continue to support legislature to protect the Second Amendment right of law abiding citizens to keep and bear arms and oppose legislation which threatens that right. Please know that should this or similar legislation come before the Senate, I will have your views closely in mind."

I slightly disagree with him. I think that the most effective way is to bring back morality. If people were actually taught religion, learned to revere God and his holy law and acted accordingly, there would be very little problem with crime or guns. However, we get a couple of people who want to remove religion from everything public or government and are somewhat effective in doing it, and then they wonder why crime is on the rise. They think that by passing gun laws and registration that people will suddenly become moral and not do crimes. You have to go back to the religious foundation as to what is right and wrong and why it is right or wrong. Without a solid religious foundation, how can we expect anything except crime? Stiff penalties for lawbreakers is a deterrant, but it does not change the attitude of the person like a religious foundation would.

[Gurm]

Ok, maybe I was lousy at my explanation last time. Here goes:

I think Jake's a little on his own here, so I'm gonna join in and agree that although I know little on how life is in the USA (apart from what I see in the media), we in the United States of Europe get along quite well without guns. I don't know if making guns more freely available would cut crime (a robber points a gun at you, you point one back - stale mate? I don't think so) there would be more and more people out there who would reckon that with the power of a firearm they can do as they please. I say that there should be no need for Joe Public to have acess to a fiream.

And it's fine for you to feel that way. IF the police are 100% effective. The problem is that criminals will ALWAYS have guns. Plenty of them. Consider that for a moment.

Gurm - I think that it's absolutely disgraceful and terrible (I can't infact find the right word that describes how I feel!!) that you can LEGALLY kill someone for entering your property wuthout permission! Could you honestly say that you could live with yourself if you shot someone in cold blood just because s/he entered you property and you didn't know their intent?? My god - if someone did that here, they would be banged up for life without a shadow of a doubt!

Yup. If someone came into my house in the middle of the night, threatening my family... I would have very little hesitation and absolutely no guilt. The question here is whether YOU could live with yourself if an intruder broke into your home, WITH a weapon, and killed your family. Could you live with the guilt?

And don't start with the "don't know their intent" argument. What possible intent could someone have for breaking into my house (I'm not talking about just walking in or ringing the doorbell) other than to deprive me of life or property?

Your other comments are about the same everywhere here, I believe.

Really? I somehow don't think so. Britain is substantially better than, say, Australia (not Europe, I realise) or many other parts of the world. However, I seriously don't think you have the same freedoms. For example, in France and Germany the freedom of religion is severely limited. Scientology has been forbidden, in fact.

Obviously, you have no freedom to bear arms. We know for a fact that you aren't protected against unreasonable search and seizure, nor are many Europeans guaranteed due process and a quick and speedy resolution for any legal matter.

I also have to say that in this country if someone calls 999 (or 112 ) then the call will be responded to. If it wasnt' there'd be massive outrage! Hell, all you need to do in this country is dial a 'silent nine' where you hit the number '9' and then nothing else. If you don't respond, then the police can be at your location within minutes. That's how the police force should be.

I agree! However, in most of America this is simply not the case. Not only are police not allowed to enter private homes without a good reason, but they are often overworked, underpaid, understaffed, and/or completely incompetent.

I believe that if everyone had access to weapons, then the police wouldn't have a chance.

It's interesting. We could get into Switzerland or Israel, but let's not. Let's get into Texas. There is a town (I LOVE THIS TOWN) where EVERY citizen is required to carry (and know how to use) a handgun.

Guess how much crime there is in this town? Since the law has gone into effect, there has been NO CRIME. NONE. No shoplifting, no nothing.

Universal armament works. Is it the BEST solution? Perhaps not. However universal disarmament is NOT the answer. Criminals will ALWAYS have guns. Plenty of them. The police will ALWAYS be incapable of protecting citizens 100% of the time.

And I don;t think that we live a blinkered, non-free life here in europe. If any government in europe said that guns were readily availble (even with a licence), then there would be massive outrage! And the other governments in europe would make that country reverse its decision.

That, of course, is one of the reasons we went and declared our independence. Hehe. Ok, I'm kidding there. But there's obviously a VERY different culture over there.

Europe may seem 'tame' to all you americans, but give me our relative safetly over your so-called freedom any day!

Hey, I'll take the freedom. I'll also take lower gas prices, lower taxes, unlimited water (are you folks still using the sink for showers over there like last time I visited?), complete privacy, and a dozen other benefits. Thanks.

(I don't want to contribute to a third world war here, just voicing my 'FREE' speech. After all - this server is hosted in the states!!!)

No war. I just think y'all have a very limited understanding of American culture. Perhaps our understanding of your culture is equally limited.

- Gurm


------------------
Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[Bixler]

You have NO idea how much fun this thread is, since my best friend is a rabid "second amnendment freak" and I usually have to take the (so called) reasonable 'other side'.

My best recollection of the 'problem' with European socialism was that it took Jorden a full 6 months to find get government approval for a love nest for himself and Holly before they could seal the deal.

Unheard of over hear.

It's the same thing.

And BTW, I LOVE Europeans, and respect your choice to live as ants in a colony.

It's OK, really.

[ALBPM]

Govt approval to live together...WTF!!!

And they call it Paradise, Utopia...LOL

Paul

[Gurm]

Paul,

Yes. It's the same with many things.

In countries with socialized medicine, people think they have it really well off - until they need a heart transplant. Then, they fly to BOSTON, or PHILADELPHIA, or CHICAGO. Oops, what happened to socialized medicine?

In countries with socialized housing, people think they have it well off until they need to drastically change their living situation. Oopsie!

I understand that they don't understand our point of view. Really, I do. They never have... which is why we had to secede in the first place (small bit of sarcasm there, sorta).

It's like the man said - I respect your choice to live like ants. I also respect your choice to be happy while doing it. Just please don't ask me to live that way. Ok?

- Gurm

P.S. And could someone PLEASE explain some things about Europe to me? Why can I buy European liquor cheaper than the Europeans can? Seriously. Whenever we had exchange students come stay with us, they wanted to shop (of course) - and after buying 85 pairs of Levis, they without fail wanted to go liquor shopping. And... get this... they bought the liquor that was LOCAL TO THEM. It drove me crazy! One kid lived a MILE from the Finlandia distillery. You'd think he would wander down there and buy some, but apparently it was like twice as expensive there as it is here. WOW. Why is that? What possible reason is there for that? I mean, things are supposed to get MORE expensive when you import them! When I buy my next car, I'm taking European delivery of it. On your average BMW you SAVE a couple grand - and the package includes airfare to Stuttgart, racing instruction on their test track, hotel accomodations, and transportation of the vehicle back to the US port of my choosing. All because it costs them thousands upon thousands to import the damn thing to America. So why is it that liquor is cheaper here? I don't get it.

------------------
Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[This message has been edited by Gurm (edited 06 October 2000).]

[Jake]

Gurm,

I just wanted to thank you for your response. I the past I have at times been inclined to think that your boomstick was a part of your anathomy, that you use for thinking. We have had several heated discussions in the past on various topics, but this time you really showed me that you are capable of independant thought. I don't have the time right now to discuss your response in detail, but I will be posting later in the day.

I will do a bit of studying about the differences in our constitutional priviledges and get back to you.

Meanwhile if you want to read our constitution follow this link:
http://dorit.ihi.ku.dk/~peterr/grundlov.html


Darn! How will I be able to concentrate about work today with all these things on my mind?

Smell you later,

Jake

[dZeus]

P.S. And could someone PLEASE explain some things about Europe to me?

ok, fine

All because it costs them thousands upon thousands to import the damn thing to America. So why is it that liquor is cheaper here? I don't get it.

You give an example of Scandinavians buying liquor.

In some European countries there is a lot of extra tax on alcohol that is selled for consumption, because the governments of those countries think they can reduce the consumption of alcohol buy having this high taxes.

Now guess which countries have these high taxed? right, the Scandinavian ones.

Over here I can tell you that a bottle (1/3 liter) of Grolsch costs 0.83 gulders (that is about 0.33 dollar), etc. etc.

Oh, fortunately I don't feel like I live in an colony of ants. But I think that has more to do with the view of Americans on Europe than with ants, just like our view on the USA like we told in this thread

And it's fine for you to feel that way. IF the police are 100% effective. The problem is that criminals will ALWAYS have guns. Plenty of them. Consider that for a moment.

Not true. With the current laws over here, I am absolutely sure that a _much_ smaller percentage of criminals have guns than in a country without gun-restricting laws.

And don't start with the "don't know their intent" argument. What possible intent could someone have for breaking into my house (I'm not talking about just walking in or ringing the doorbell) other than to deprive me of life or property?

This means the same as death-punshment on house-breaking. I don't say that people who break into houses are nice people, but capital punishment looks more like a law for strict-islamitic counties like some in the Middle-East.

Really? I somehow don't think so. Britain is substantially better than, say, Australia (not Europe, I realise) or many other parts of the world. However, I seriously don't think you have the same freedoms. For example, in France and Germany the freedom of religion is severely limited. Scientology has been forbidden, in fact.

I am glad it is. Just like nazism, kkk, etc.

And they call it Paradise, Utopia...LOL

We didn't, you did

Many European governments have "freedom". Unless there's a problem, or a situation in which it is helpful NOT to allow that freedom. Then you'd be amazed at how fast that freedom dissolves.

In America, we are GUARANTEED freedoms. They may not be abridged (to handily misquote a famous document) by anyone - no person, agency, or government may take them from us.

How come that here in Holland we can buy grass, stuff and hasj in a shop?(whatever these are called in English. they all are products of Marihuana).

How come it is legal to have prostutution?


but whatever is said in this thread, I just think our cultures are so different, that it is _very_ hard for eachother to understand the other's culture, without having lived in the other's country for at least a couple of years.


- Frank, who's wondering how the discussion would have gone between Japanese and Africans

- edit for sp -

[This message has been edited by dZeus (edited 06 October 2000).]

[Paddy]

Liverpool is GSW (gun shot wound) capital of Great Britain. They get maybe one case a week.

Makes you think.

[Vlip]

Ok, you americans took the example of Switzerland for a state in Europe where we have the same right as you when speaking about guns.
Let me, as a true Swiss citizen, explain you one or two details.
Most youngs (when in good mental and physical shape) has to do military, and gets an assault rifle with 50 bullets (right now the SIG SG551, for the specialists). We are allowed to move them ONLY in the trunk of a car with munition on the front seats. Since I've done my military (2 years ago) there have been one misuse of those guns in whole switzerland (implying no deaths nor injuries).
The bullets are sealed in a metal case you have to show each two years, the only legal way to open this case is a FEDERAL MOBILISATION ACT in case of WAR. We do not have guns to awoid our governement to get havoc nor antidemocratic, simply because that is NOT possible!!!
Somebody using his assault rifle to kill, even to protect his family would have to go to martial court!!!

No we do not have the same right as you, and anybody wanting to give us this right would get smashed down in the votation that would result from it.

I do not believe there is any possibility of comparison between our two countries on this ground (I have spent six months in the US, so I know more than only TV shows ) and the only thought of seeing those assault rifles in the streets gets me frightened.
One other fact that varies from US and switzerland, there is NO one who owns one of those deadly WAR assault rifle that didn't get extensive training with it, those guns are only given to people who have proved their psychological strength in rough military training!

So the day you'll see all the Swiss average men going down to the cave to take their assault rifles, that will mean that a foreign country is messing with us and nothing else!

About your freedom, I do not agree with you, we in Europe have the same basic rights than you, it's just a fact that to live better WE have OURSELVES limited the extrem part of them. And that's even more true in Switzerland than anywhere in the World, the day where you americans get as much right as we do, make me a call, I'll come visit )

I hope I did not hurt anybodies feeling, but some things needed to be said.

Vlip

[Vlip]

Oups, forgot to put something:

Right now the Swiss Army has something like 350'000 trained soldiers. In a state with 7 millions inhabitants it's an awefull lot (The french army is actually the same size, the german one is smaller and the british one is a tid bigger).
So that makes 350'000 modern assault rifles that did NOT kill anybody, nor got involved in any illegal actions.
Should make you think where the problem really is

[ALBPM]

Good Points Vlip,

That just goes to show that it's people who kill people not the guns.

Honest, Law abiding, well trained people should be able to own guns. If you pass laws that forbid this group to own weapons then only the criminal element will be armed.

Paul

[Gurm]

Vlip,

You just made my point. You yourselves VOLUNTARILY gave up some freedoms in order to enjoy certain benefits. Great - more power to ya. I'll skip the benefits and keep the freedoms, thanks.

- Gurm

------------------
Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.