Gun Registration through IRS!!!!!!!

[Vlip]

The only people who should be able to get weapons are: soldiers, cops and a few hunters.

That is exactly what happens in my country, not in yours.

I do believe having guns needs maturity and training, most of americans usually do not have the two of them at the same time. That's why I never felt safe in the US.

And also, the psychological approach we european have to guns is radically different to the one I felt when I was in the US.
We see guns as war tools and not self protection tools or whatever else.
The swiss gun tradition is an army tradition instaured by the army, it means constantly training to use guns to be able as a soldier to protect the country. Your american tradition is based on self(ish) protection, you have gun to protect yourselves as a citizen against other citizens.
That makes hell of a difference to my eyes!
The swiss people has showed more maturity on using guns than you americans had. There is the problem, you can't give that maturity to americans and you can't take all guns away. So you are on a dead end and there is no short solution. I see the only praticable solution as being to take all the guns away, it will take centuries, but it will work.

Don't take it wrong, I love the US, but you have one problem we don't have. We have other problems you don't have. Everybody his bag of misery, but it's still a fact our misery does not kill as much as yours.

[Vlip]

Gurm

Just one sentence:
"Everything is poison, it's just a question of quantity"
That also applies to freedom.

[SteveC]

Gurm - can you name a few examples of what 'freedom' do you have that we (Europeans) don't have. And if you name any, please tell us WHY you want to have this particular 'free' right.

(Ignore the killing someone for entering your property one for the mo.)

Thanks!

------------------
Cheers,
Steve

"Life is what we make of it, yet most of us just fake"

[DentyCracker]

I live in Kingston. Gunshot wound capital of Jamaica. Lets just say that we could train the entire British Medical Alumni on how to treat a gunshot wound, with each person needing to spend only a day and getting at least 3 cases down by KPH. You are allowed to own a gun here, but it must be licensed. Trust me when I tell you that if we couldn't have guns (and not many people who aren't policemen, or soldiers do), it would be much worse, as the criminals are going to get their guns. Just trust me on that one. I believe though that if you own a gun it should be mandatory for you to know how to use it properly. And if I had a gun you better not be trying to come into my house at night, as given the crime situation here I am going to shoot you and ask questions later, sorry

[Jammrock]

To Everyone,

Going back to an older Jake post, where he talked about socialogical differences between Denamrk and the USA...

I am from the states, but I am half Norwegian (my mother was born and raised on an island by Aalesund, so I was basically raised by a Scandinavian) and I have lived in Denmark for a couple of years. Half of my relatives live somewhere in Europe and I have taken a lot of European history. So I do have a feel for how things are on both sides of the Atlantic.

These are just my opinions, so please don't flame me too bad.

Europe (including Denmark): For millennia (as in thousands of years) most of Europe has been ruled by a monarch and/or socialistic government. This means that the majority of the protection has also been done by the government, both foriegn and domestic. And let me tell you, the government is the only people allowed to use any force.

In Denmark (at least it was law when I was there) even self defense is practically shunned. If you physically hit someone, no matter what the reason, you will go to jail for 30 days (a few people get off, but not many). And yes this law is actively enforced, as I knew a few people who went to jail for hitting someone.

Now no matter what the people or the government say, it all boils down to who has the power, and the federal government wants it all. The tax bracket for the 'poor', the bottom of the barrel, are as high as 50% of your gross income!!! That's not including the 25% sales tax you pay for everything you buy (including any form of labor). BTW, this is the type of government Al Gore wants the US to be like.

People in Europe are used to having the government play THE key role in society. Especially for criminal defense and distribution of wealth (things like social medicine). So why does anyone need a gun? No real reason is there?

The USA: The US was founded by people who did not like the way things were done in Europe. That right there should almost say it all. The US was founded by people who wanted to be their own ruler. They knew that they couldn't survive against organized forgien powers, so they made a government. If you go back to the true constitution, the federal government's only real power is to settle disputes that haven't been settled by the States.

Local/Domestic protection was mainly done by whoever was being attacked. In the larger cities they had some police force, but most the states took the law into their own hands. Guns are a great form of protection, whether you like it or not. And that's the way people in the US were raised. Someone attacks you, you attack back. End of story.

Because of the way the US was raised, we have laws that protect people who defend themselves, instead of punish them. If someone attacks you in your house, and you shoot them dead, you won't go to jail because you were defending your property and your family. Someone attacks you with a knife and you beat them to a bloody pulp, you were defending yourself, you won't go to jail.

That's the way the US was started and raised. Why wait for the cops to show up when you/your family are in danger now?

This is also why you see a lot of people who are very vehement (angry) against Al Gore and the liberal Demecrates here in the US. They are pushing for a socialistic society, in a country started by people who were trying to get away from large, centralized governments with too much power. Power to the people! That's what the US was made for. That's why most people in the US don't like socialism, it takes away too much from us. And that's why a lot of people carry guns. Guns are a symbol of power, and if you wield one, you wield the power to defend yourself (or attack someone if your not a nice person).

That's enough. I'll clean it up later.

Jammrock

[ALBPM]

Too bad it didn't go off...LOL

Paul

[Joel]

the government would not hesitate to use their guns on us...waco, ruby ridge etc.

Those are a couple of bad examples IMO.

But then again, where else but in America can a republican led campaign againist the first family be allowed to spend about 90 millions dollars of taxpayers money only to catch the president in a lie about a blowjob.

Joel



[This message has been edited by Joel (edited 06 October 2000).]

[Gurm]

Ok, some examples of our "freedoms".

Let's see:

1. If the police come to my door because someone has reported that I have committed a crime, and demand to be allowed in, I can say "no". If they enter anyway, I can defend myself with lethal force. Where else in the world does an individual have the right to refuse the police entry under ALL CIRCUMSTANCES?

Nota Bene: Yes, they can obtain a court ordered warrant to enter my place of residence. Doing so is extremely difficult under any circumstances except things like murder investigations.

2. If I publish a magazine, I can say anything I like about anyone I like. I can accuse the government of corruption. I can accuse the president of raping small children. I can print lies, disinformation, and horrible propaganda in the name of editorializing. Nobody can stop me, not even the government.

3. If something happens, I can report it. Loudly. With no reservations. There are no limitations. It's called freedom of the press. We have it. You, for the most part, don't.

4. If I want to start a fringe religion based on getting people to worship me whilst naked, I can. In fact, I've been thinking about it (only if it's profitable though, because frankly there are lots of people I'd rather not see naked)! I can start this religion and preach it in the streets if I want to. I can be a Christian, a Scientologist, or a nonpracticing secular buddhist of convenience.

5. I can start a hate group. I can attempt to convince others to join. If I want to be a Nazi, I can be a Nazi. Or a communist. Or any other kind of freaky, fascist wierdo that I want. I can declare myself to be the sovereign nation of Gurmonia, and demand that all entering my house get naked and dance in circles as part of the residency requirements.

6. I can avoid self-incrimination. If called upon to testify in a court of law I can refuse to answer questions which I feel would implicate me. For example:

Judge: Where was Leon on the night in question?

Me: I plead the 5th amendment, your honor.

(Because that night Leon was with me, snorting cocaine and engaging in other illegal activities.)

7. I have the right to trial by a jury of my peers. That's right - my peers. Idiots like me. No matter what I did (there are a few exceptions, of course - if the crime was insignificant enough).

8. I can pick my own doctor.

9. I can pick the school my children will attend - or if they will attend school at all.

Now, some of these rights and freedoms may be enjoyed by some or all of the folks in Europe. However, many of them are not - or are not REALLY rights. I think you'll find that "freedom of speech" applies only when the government of your country feels it should apply. Freedom of the press is equally dodgy. Heaven forbid we bring up the right to bear arms again (notice I left it out)! Freedom of religion is, in most of Europe... RIGHT OUT.

- Gurm

------------------
Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[Thundrchez]

Man killed in police raid on the wrong house. http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/10/06/ten....ap/index.html

Check the number of the house the next time before you barge in with guns a-blazin'.

[Rags]

Hi Steve,

Gurm - can you name a few examples of what 'freedom' do you have that we (Europeans) don't have. And if you name any, please tell us WHY you want to have this particular 'free' right.

Well, there are several, but I will give the one example that has been brought up already in this thread. I know, I am not Gurm, but I take issue with this.
How about Freedom of Religion. Yes, Freedom of Religion. This means if I choose so, I can worship the Devil, the dogs, the cars, whatever, hell I don't have to worship anything if I don't want to. This is very important, because in the past, when religion is allowed to be part of the state, the religion would dominate the legislation and execution of laws. This means that if the religion of the state believed that medicine (this is a crude overexageration) was paganistic, then there would be laws against medicine. Religion isn't always about common sense and truth. And most Americans understand this (I hope). Sometimes truth and common sense threaten, in the eyes of the Church, the whole foundation on which the religion is based. So instead of reconciling the two, the Church/State would just ban any talk of such things and leave it at that. The side effect of having freedom of religion is that you get some groups that stand for things that are not so healthy. But the rule is that there cannot be "oh, this is okay, but that religion is not". There is no clear cut way to define what is a good religion and what is not.

Okay, I guess I need to add my other favorite right. I have the right to NOT be searched, have my property seized, or be detained without a court order showing overwhelming cause. This means that the police cannot just come to my home and and go through my personal belongings, seize my property, and haul me off to the clink without a warrant. They cannot do these things because I am not liked by them, or don't share the same views as them. They cannot come to my home and do such things because I am of different origin, speak differently, or whatever. This is a big problem in other countries, and some people here are too willing to give that freedom up. I say it's one of our most sacred god-given rights not to be invaded upon without good cause, and having a system in place that has clear-cut lines on what is good cause.
I have first hand experience with exercising this particular right. I was going to college in KC, MO. I am from Wyoming, so my license plates are different from others in KC. I was coming from the computer lab at night, driving down the road to my apartment, when I get pulled over by the police. I was asked for my driver's license and all that great stuff by a real nice officer (he was a jerk), and he asked me if I knew why I was pulled over. I said no, because I knew I wasn't speeding, as I have a radar detector and knew where he was for over a mile before I crossed his path. He said I was speeding. I simply told him that I was not, and he was mistaken. He told me to hang on, meanwhile his partner was over at the other side of my car with a flashlight giving the inside of my vehicle a little look-see, and was taking great interest of a package on my seat (it was a bag of IC's wrapped in electrostatic bags). The officer comes back and asks me if I knew I was going 10 miles per hour over the limit. I told him again he was mistaken. He then went and talked to his partner, he returns, hands me my driver's license and says "you can go now, but first I wanna ask you a couple of questions, and would like to have permission to search your vehicle." I said "No thanks", started my car and left. I had nothing to hide. I was doing nothing wrong. I had no reason to be searched. The police officer was using his authority to try to intimidate me. He was also trying to get me to admit to speeding when I was not, just so he had documented reason to pull me over. Even if I had been speeding, he still would not have been able to search my vehicle without permission, a warrant, or overwhelming evidence that someone was in danger, or evidence from an ongoing investigation was probable to get destroyed (this one is a lot harder than it sounds to meet in court). Many people take this right for granted. I do not, and I hope more Americans do exercise this right.
I know the courts will if you push them. A guy in NYC got pulled over at 3 AM after a cop saw him go to his car, put a bag in his trunk, get in the car and drive away. The cop pulled him over on the grounds that "his activities were suspicious because of the time, and the neighborhood he was in". The cop asks him to search his car, he agrees. The cop finds a dufflebag full of cocaine. The guy is arrested and put in jail. End of story, right? WRONG! The guy gets a lawyer, and has everything that was obtained in the search thrown out because the search was performed under a detention that was not warranted. You can't pull someone over for nothing just to search their car. That's what the cop did. Everyone I talk to thinks that the courts are screwed up, but they aren't. If the cop would have been smart, he could have found a way to detain the guy, and then set up the search, but he insisted on trampling on people's rights, because he was lazy. Our courts protect those rights, and everyone should be glad they do.

I hope you folks from across the water understand what we have here, and it's not anarchy, like some of you think. We have something that we cherish, and are not willing to lose any of them, because you give up one, and that sets up losing the rest. One last note, when was the last time you saw a guy from America floating on a rickety homemade raft headed for another country? Now tell me how many have you heard of headed here?

Rags

[Gurm]

Quick thought Rags,

Let's not confuse Europe with Central America. Heh. Europeans aren't QUITE as hot to get over here as Cubans and Mexicans... but they're still immigrating in record numbers so your point is somewhat valid.

I listed, in case you missed it (I posted whilst you were typing, it seems) the unreasonable search and seizure as well as the freedom of religion.

Also several others that I believe are denied, in part or in whole in many parts of Europe.

However, it will not surprise me when someone comes back with "no, we're free to say whatever we want - we have freedom of speech".

So I'll go get my sources in the morning. But I recall that some Europeans on a different board (Palm Pilot stuff, IIRC) were flabbergasted that it was OK to post instructions for committing a crime in a public forum - and encouragement to do so. They just couldn't wrap their heads around it.

Their definition of these freedoms is VERY different from our own. And it's REALLY REALLY hard for them to start to understand it. We can see it from the other side, and we're not willing to take the benefits they gained.

There's always a social payoff. There's always equalibrium. It's a question of how it's maintained. What did they "give up" to gain their "benefits"? It's a hard question to answer, especially when you are brought up thinking that the situation you're in is 100% normal.

If the idea of starting an anti-government protest movement that demonstrates in the street is something you can't even comprehend, then how can you begin to understand it when someone tells you you're not free to do that? Your response is "well of course not, that's not a good thing to do"!

If you are brought up thinking that people like scientoligists and Jehovah's Witnesses are strange, dangerous, and cult-ish then you'd have a hard time understanding it when someone told you you didn't have freedom of religion. You'd just say "sure, I can be any religion I want" because it never occurred (sp?) to you that anyone in their right mind might want to be a member of the "Second Saint Jim Overcoming Church of God, Christ, and Lucifer with Signs and Fires and Death and Plagues Following on the Sixth Day", whose beliefs involve covering themselves with peanut butter and chanting in the street.

Then you add in the element of something we ALL feel is intrinsically WRONG, which is the taking of another human life. All of us feel this way, even those of us who have come out in favor of guns for defense. I'd feel very little guilt about defending my family with a gun - only because I feel JUSTIFIED, not because I feel it's ok to kill.

So I understand why they're confused. I understand why they have a general disdain for us. In their eyes, they've "evolved" socially and we haven't. What they fail to see is that we CHOSE not to "evolve" in that particular direction, and still CHOOSE not to, and will defend (violently, if need be) our RIGHT to not CHOOSE that path.

- Gurm

------------------
Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[Jake]

Gurm,

Since you obvoiusly did not care to read our constitution, or you did not have any constructive criticism after having read it, but persits in your ongoing rant, you more or less force me to write this response.

Reading your posts today, I could not help think, that even though you might be right about how your freedoms SHOULD work, you are so very wrong about how they DO work.

Since you seem to enjoy telling us Europeans, that we have sold out on our freedom to gain meager social benefits, and live like ants in a colony, I thought you could need a taste of your own medicine.

Here is a link that will tell you a different story. A TRUE story of how your precious freedoms work in REAL life.
http://www.american-pictures.com/english/index.html

This material has been used in lectures in over a thousand American colleges (has it helped any?). Read it if you have the guts to see how America REALLY works.

Remember the song: "You can get it if you really want it"?

I have one word for your so called freedom: FUBAR.

I implore you to prove me wrong.

Jake

[This message has been edited by Jake (edited 07 October 2000).]

[Paddy]

Jake, I beleive that you're right.

Only in America......

I suppose it all depends upon what values you regard as being sacred.

Each to their own.

Although I have never been to the states (and therefore not qualified to comment), I hear there is quite a problem with alcohol over there? I'm told that because there is such a big taboo about it people either abstain or binge at weekends?

I know its a very generic comment, but what are your views?

[Vlip]

As I do not like to make statements I can not back up, I will have to wait sometime before replying to your affirmation gurm. But be sure I'll do it precisely, just give me time.

[Joel]

We don't have a problem with alcohol over here. We drink, we get drunk, we fall down, no problem.

Joel