And another War ....

[Gurm]

Doesn't it amaze anyone that, after we Americans get so much flak here in the fori for being prejudiced, prone to violence, and blindly nationalistic...

Have any of you been READING some of the drivel that's coming out of these two?

And you thought WE were prejudiced. Ha!

- Gurm

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Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[The PIT]

I thought a bit of concern about a european army is that it might weaken Nato. You would have two fairly large parties that could possibly have completly different view points and policies.

[omegaRED]

Hey hey hey! I`m not saying it was solely US decision to Yugoslavia, but come on! Who pulls the strings? The UK? Germany? It`s still the US. You are the most powerfull Nation in the World now ( militarily, politicaly & economicaly ). That`s why i say the US, and when have the rest of NATO members rejected anything the US proposed?

IF the US said "Ok, you`re on your own now, we wont babysit you anymore", the EU would have to start taking care of problems. They would be forced to act alone, without the US. In the start it might struggle, but the World cant continue depending on the US all the time.

Rags: Nothing against the US people, just it`s politics.

Joel: Make the Government pull back your troops.

Paulcs: NATO acted, but if the US didnt push the idea for military action, it wouldnt have happened. My problem isnt that NATO acted, it`s HOW they acted.

1) It shouldnt have been a military action
2) If it was a military action, they shouldnt have taking sides, should`ve stayed neutral, if they ed Serbs, they should`ve ed the KLA too.

The whole point is, they supported one side in the conflict, who were "The Victims", and it turned out they were just as bad ( or worse ) than the Serbs. And now, we pay the price for that error.

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Seth, are you ok ?
I`m peachy, Kate. The world is my oyster.

[Rags]

Omega,

You haven't really followed NATO for long have you? They have rejected and overrided the US on MANY occassions.

If you don't want the US there tell your government to pull its boot straps up, and start walking on its own for a while. This goes for many European countries. They ask the US to get involved, so now you bitch at us. Pretty strange, I think you should be bitching at your leaders. Maybe if they would spend more of your taxes on Military so they could defend themselves, this wouldn't be an issue.

Rags

[alessandro]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gurm:

Have any of you been READING some of the drivel that's coming out of these two?
</font>

Drivel??????
Ignorance at it's finest.......wait,wait don't tell me, you also won WWII!!!!!!LOL
You americans know NOTHING about what is really happening here in the Balkans.

[Rags]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Ignorance at it's finest.......wait,wait don't tell me, you also won WWII!!!!!!LOL
You americans know NOTHING about what is really happening here in the Balkans.</font>

Your honor, I rest my case.

Gurm's point has been proven

Rags

[paulcs]

Firstly, OmegaRED, the United States was not the driving force behind NATO's military action in Kosovo. Great Britain was. While Bill Clinton dawdled, Tony Blair pushed for action. You're just wrong.

Secondly, alessandro, we know more about the Balkans than we want to. Every cultural reference we have for the region points to ridiculous quadmires, needless bloodshed, irrational nationalism, deceit, and betrayal on an epic scale. We know of a region that never seemed to have a moment's peace unless under the thumb of a ruthless dictator, whether it be the Ottomans, the Hapsburgs, the Soviets, Tito or whomever.

Frankly, damn near everyone in the West knows too much about the Balkans. And it sickens us. To hear listen to moralist lectures from the region is simply appalling. It's like being scolded by some ruthless thug for illegally parking.

Shame.

Paul
paulcs@speakeasy.net

[omegaRED]

Jesus Christ! What is it with you Americans? You despise everything thats not American, especially the Balkans or Eastern Europe.

Tito? A Dictator? What the hell have u been reading? Any system thats not based on Capitalist values is Dictatorship? True, Capitalism is the way to go, but just cause Socialism didnt work out the way it was supposed to doesnt make it Dictatorship!
I lived 14 years in Dictatorship. Funny, didnt seem like Dictatorship then, nor does it now. As a matter of fact, nearly everyone agrees that we were better off in that "Dictatorship". You act as if they had you brainwashed. West-Good, East-Bad. I bet you still dont like Russians.

The whole idea behind Socialism was the best, just the people ( human race in general ) werent ready to accept a Class-free society, rid of Material goods cravings.

You cant understand ANYTHING whats going on on the Balkans. When was the last war you had in the US? The Civil War, right? The only war you had on US soil was a Civil War. You cant understand why things are so volatile here. You are one Nation living on almost the whole Continent. You cant possibly understand having lots of countries living in a small regions, each with its own traditon, history & religious beliefs.

Then i must ask u something. Why, oh why there are minor/major Wars going on everywhere in the World, not just the Balkans? How the hell do u explain that?

And do u honestly think that things are better now without the Soviet Union/Warzsaw Pact? Having only one Superpower/block? Having noone to oppose NATO can lead to NATO doing whatever it wants!

From now on i will use only NATO, not US.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">*NATO* acted in the face of a massive diaspora and a serious threat of genocide. </font>

What the hell do u call this then? A minor quarrel?

Gurm: You puzlle me

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">And soon, the % ists" will claim that they are "reclaiming their homeland", and that they occupied it before you did. They'll call themselves the "Macedonglian Liberation Organization" and appoint a cold-blooded, crazed killer as "president". Then they'll demand that you "give back" half of your country to them. When you say "ok", because NATO wanted you to, they will then demand the REST of your country.
Oh, wait. That's the so-called "Palestinians". Oopsie.</font>

DRIVEL!?!

Rags: Who do u think supplied the KLA with Arms? Who trained them? A SAS instructor ( GB special forces ), admitted that he along with others trained the Rebels in Kosovo.

NATO TOOK THE WRONG ACTION BY ING SERBIA, WHETHER YOU ADMIT IT OR NOT! WE ARE NOW PAYING THE PRICE FOR THAT


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Seth, are you ok ?
I`m peachy, Kate. The world is my oyster.

[Rags]

Hey pal, I am not saying what NATO did was right. I am saying that for you to bash the "West" because of it is pure BullSHIT. Don't be pointing fingers to us because it's not our fault that you all can't get along. I believe that the US is more tolerant of other nationalities and races than you are. The only thing we get sick of is getting the finger pointed over here every time one of the numerous countries over there has bloodshed. Believe me, if it were my way, I would make all of these people who want war go to the corner for a timeout. I am sick to death of all the war and fighting, and I am even more-so of the finger pointing. Look inwards, not outwards, to find the root of the problems, and the solution is there too.

Rags



[This message has been edited by Rags (edited 24 March 2001).]

[omegaRED]

Hey to u pal. I didn`t say the West started this. We can`t get along with others. I admit that.

I can understand why you are sick`n`tired of finger-pointing, but you`ll have to live with it. It all started here. We ( the people living on the Balkans ) are to blame for starting this. But the West made a MISTAKE. It made things worse. By trying to solve a problem, it created even more.

Muslims and Orthodox dont get along with each other here, but we managed to live together, because we all didnt want another war, especially one we werent sure of winning. There were always minor problems, but the Albanians would never have risen to Arms of NATO didn`t support them in Kosovo. With that support, they now think they can win in a war against us, and get a Great Albania.

Now, if the West didn`t get involved, i wouldnt be pointing a finger at NATO, now would i?

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Seth, are you ok ?
I`m peachy, Kate. The world is my oyster.

[Rags]

I agree that the west getting involved is not always a solution.

My problem is you said "Jesus Christ! What is it with you Americans? You despise everything thats not American, especially the Balkans or Eastern Europe. ".

Well, I take issue with that, because I don't believe we are intolerant of your cultures, and we DON'T despise you or your culture. Quite contrary, we embrace it. The thing we don't embrace is your attitude of "The West is the cause of problems over here. The West thinks their shit doesn't stink. The West blah blah blah."

Give up the attitude towards us. Just because our government does something you don't like doesn't make it open season on the citizens.

Rags

[paulcs]

I got involved for the very same reason. You just seem to be ignoring half the stuff you said.

Listen. Although both my parents are of Italian descent, I grew up in New York surrounded by Slavic languages and traditions. I was raised in what might be the largest Polish community outside of Poland. My mother developed a conversational Polish fluency as a teenager so she could converse with people in the neighborhood. My stepfather was Russian. My godmother is Polish. I attended a Ukrainian Catholic school. To this day, I have trouble remembering which direction to make the sign of the cross, because I was constantly switching directions as a kid. (Rome - right. Right?)

I have the utmost respect and affection for Slavic and Eastern European culture. But I don't have an ax to grind.

I believe we should have gotten involved sooner than we did. I don't believe we were on the wrong side. I don't even think NATO sees things in terms of the wrong side or the right side. From NATO's perspective, there are no good guys and bad guys. Just bad guys and this week's victims.

What we're seeing in Macedonia is that most enduring of Balkan military traditions: back stabbing. This week, NATO committed more troups to help contain the KLA at the border. I think this was the correct thing to do. I'm sure they were instructed to watch their backs, however. This is what drives people in the West crazy about the Balkans. You never know what side your on.

The enemy of your enemy is most likely your enemy.

Paul
paulcs@speakeasy.net

[omegaRED]

Well, if you read carefully, you will see that Tito and the Soviets were pointed out as Dictators. I believe that we, as in Macedonia, lived way better in Yugoslavia. And i respect that Yugoslavia, and just because it doesnt exist anymore, doesnt give Paulcs the right to call it Dictatorship.

And he said Soviets. Now, if he said Stalin, i would agree with him, but as it is he accused the Soviets in general as Dictators. And from what he said, he has the worst opinion possible about the East.

I will TRY to lose the attitude problem, but it wont be easy, seeing how all Eastern Countries ( esp. Yugoslavia and SSSR ) were treated like plague. Now tell me, who was your worst enemy during the Cold War? Russia/SSSR. And Yugoslavia had close connections to SSSR then and still has now. GB had hoped that during WWII Hitler would destroy Russia in order to destroy Comunism/Socialism. The West hated Russia and all Socialist countries then, and allthough things have changed now, i get the feeling that Yugoslavia & Russia arent the favorite partners of the West.

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Seth, are you ok ?
I`m peachy, Kate. The world is my oyster.

[omegaRED]

Hmmm ... took me a while to reply, Paul beat me to it

Now, i completely agree with you now Paul. The Serbs were the Bad Guys then, the Albanians are now, tomorrow we`ll be no no, just kidding, we wont ...

But you are now spot on, and u seem to have the same opinion i have.

I dont know why IYO NATO should have acted sooner.

IMO, NATO shouldn`t have acted. I gather you`re an educated man, and seem to know the History of the Balkans pretty good. As i believe that your government and the govs. of all NATO countries are too rather inteligent, they too know the history of these nations and their complex relationships. Didnt they expect something like this happening?

But then again, look at what`s happening in Kosovo and Sotuhern Serbia now. Now the Albanians are conducting ethnic clensing. Why doesnt NATO bomb them? Ok, i agree, it shouldnt, as i myself am against voilence and wars, but when someone`s trying to kill you ...

That was my whole point. NATO TOOK a side in that conflict. The Rebels. I believe NATO was suckered into this conflict by them, knowing that the West couldnt stand and watch an Ethnic Clensing.

Now, even if i agree that the bombings were the only possible solution, why doesnt NATO disarm the KLA now? Take a tougher stance? Shoot, if necessary? The point in taking the Action was to prevent more bloodshed. Blood is still spilled in Kosovo, S.Serbia and here. NATO should take action now, even a military one, to disarm/destroy the KLA. Then, this danger will be eliminated. And about other problems afterwards ... who knows?

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Seth, are you ok ?
I`m peachy, Kate. The world is my oyster.

[omegaRED]

Interesting ... i`m glad that we agree on something ... Anyhow, i was talking from my personal experience ( and i believe, Macedonians in general ), i wouldnt know what`s the current Croatian or Slovenian opinon towards SFRJ. I find it possible that Tito wasnt a democrat perhaps, but, as you said, he maintained paece not only in Yugoslavia, but the Balkans too, and in the end, the life standard wasnt that bad then. Way better than it is now in Macedonia. And that`s what counts for the average Citizen. Food on the table.

I am interested in what NATO and US plans are now concerning the Rebels and Serbia. I have no doubts about Macedonia, i believe what the US says about our sovereignity and stability. But, as you said, if NATO now makes the Albanians the enemy, it will be in a very bad position. You must remember though, the Serbs dont like the US very much after Kosovo. Sure, they got rid of Milosevic, but they lost Kosovo. Even though the government there now is democratic, they wont forget the loss of Kosovo very soon. The US is now trying to patch things up with Serbia, and thats good.

But the whole point is, they acted a bit "too decisevely" in Kosovo. Everyone now expects, since they took such action against a country, they should now be as decisive against the Terrorists too.

The solution to the problem, acceptable to both sides, NATO/US and Macedonia, is still a mystery to me. All i know is that NATO entered too hastily in that conflict, making a precedent.

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Seth, are you ok ?
I`m peachy, Kate. The world is my oyster.