And another War ....

[SCompRacer]

And don't forget women...

[omegaRED]

Hmmm. OK. I think i wasnt insulting anyone, so i think you`re rude, Alessandro. First of all, how old are u to be calling me a kid. I`m 23. Second, if u read carefully, you would have noticed that i said AFTER THE FIRST WORLD WAR. Not before 1000yrs, not 2000 or something else.

What`s your problem anyhow? None of us say were related to the Ancient Macedonians ( Greeks ), nor Alexander the Great. As u know, you old and wise soul, this territory is called Macedonia, that`s how we got the name. Nothing further.

Here you go again about "you`re not etc. etc. Macedonians.". Yes we are. As One-eyed Kiro said, Slav Macedonians. Infact, u seem to know better than me the speeches of our former President, so again, what`s your problem.

I will say this again.

WE ARE IN NO WAY RELATED TO THE ANCIENT MACEDONIANS. WE SIMPLY LIVE ON THE TERRITORY CALLED MACEDONIA, THAT`S HOW WE GOT THE NAME.

Geez. What is it with you? Are u afraid that the world would think we are the "Ancient" Macedonians. Anyone who is interested in the history of this region knows we arent. So?

Wait just a sec. Could you tell me what bothers you. Please? I`m not being sarcastic, i really want to know.

Besides, you think that not letting the people who lived in Northern Greece now return there for a day or so was the right thing to do? Do you?

You are right though. We are the No.1 country of Narcotics smuggling in the Balkans. Do you know who these smugglers are ? 80% Albanians, who support the Rebels with the money.



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Seth, are you ok ?
I`m peachy, Kate. The world is my oyster.

[alessandro]

Nothing personal omegaRED, but my post is directed to the nationalist FYROM citizens that seems that you are not part of them but sadly are the majority of your country.
You seem to ignore the hundred of propaganda sites your people have in the Internet. Search them a little and you will see why I react like this. (You will realise that your have territorial claims against Greece and that’s not the only thing).
Don't get me wrong but i had so many chats with FYROM's residents and hear their opinions in the past years, than you seem to be the exception.
About your Albanian problem it seem that our country will support you, judging from the meeting of your president and prime minister with Mr Papandreou yesterday.

[omegaRED]

Hey, nice to see that we can have a talk without accusing each other

There are probably some nationailst sites, but to tell u the truth,i dont pay attention to them. These people either have no knowledge of history, or are plain Nationalists.

About the Territorial claims. Anyone smart enough would realize that there`s no chance of changing the borders. If u read my posts earlier, you would have noticed that i`m opposed to it. Read the 10th post. So, people who think that Northern Greece should be part of this Macedonia, are just ignorant, or easily persuaded by some leaders of Political Parties here in Macedonia. Believe me, they dont know WHY N.Greece "should" belong to us.

On the other hand, people who escaped from there during the Civil War like refugees, like my GrandParents, SHOULD have gotten their Land back. And i stick to this.

However, you didn`t answer my question about these refugees who wanted to return to their Homeland. IT IS rightfully theirs. And i`m talking about their Houses and Land, NOT N.Greece. And my Grandfather didn`t even want his Land back, or some compensation. He just wanted to visit his Home, like my Grandmother did last year. NOTHING else. So i really cant understand Greece`s Politic before. Now, i think, our Relationships are getting better, as they should.

And so i think you should have understanding for those People`s anger, if there is any. Not letting them return to their Homes was plain WRONG. If they were allowed to return, i would`ve probably been born in Greece, not here.

But you still havent answered my question, why dont you "let us" be called Macedonians, regarding what i explained two posts earlier.

And post some links to those Sites, i`d like to see what the say.

So, my Greek friend, we seem to have a common problem on the Balkans, and should work together in solving it.



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Seth, are you ok ?
I`m peachy, Kate. The world is my oyster.

[alessandro]

For the Greek people position on the name- problem try http://truth.macedonia.gr/ . (Just one of the many Greek sites on the subject, just search the word "macedonia" in in.gr for more Greek sites or the same word in www.google.com for your sites).
You see your flag is an insult to Greeks because you use a Greek symbol as yours.
E.x http://www.geocities.com/~makedonija/ one of your sites.



[This message has been edited by alessandro (edited 07 March 2001).]

[omegaRED]

Yes i see what you mean, but we`ve changed our flag since. But wait ... Oh my God !!!

ALBANOSLAVIA !?!?!

I mean, c`mon. What`s this all about?
And this?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Their "Macedonian language" is actualy a Bulgarian dialect with some SerboCroatian influences. Thats why the Bulgarians claim that they speak and understand "Macedonian".</font>

And this?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">There is no "Macedonian minority" in Greece because there is no such nationality. There is a small group of people who speak a Slavic dialect which is in fact different from what is claimed to be the "Macedonain language" These people are not a "Macedonian minority" as they consider themselves Greeks. There is also an even smaller group of Slav propagandists who are trying to create a Macedonian minority in Greece. Anyone who didn't consider him/herself Greek could and should have left Greece during the exchange of populations in 1919. </font>

If this is what you believe in, you are no different from the Bulgarians, which implies that we dont exist. And ofcourse it ( the language they speak ) is different. They live in another country. It is a dialect. But if its not the same language, how come i can understand my Grandmother?( and i only know Macedonian (FYROMian if u like), Serbian, Croatian, English and German). Or how could anyone understand her here, at the time she came here. If u deny our existance ( as a Nation ), i must ask u : Do Americans exist? Except the ethnic Indians. You would say no, then. Because they are Irish, Germans, Englishmen, Chinese, Portoricans etc. etc.

THEY SHOULD consider themselves Greek, but of "FYROMian" nationality. If u ask me, this site is no better then the Macedonian Sites. There are true facts, and i agree with them, but there is some total bulls**t. You`re trying to tell me i`m Greek ( of Greek nationality)? I`m sorry, but i can`t accept that. And another thing. If Macedonia before WW2 was called "Vardaska", it was called Vardarska Makedonija. Because in our "Bulgarian" language, "Vardarska" is just an adjective, it can`t be used without a name.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Greece acquired 51% of Macedonia in 1913 as a result of the treaty of Buchurest. I don't think that an international treaty is ileegal. Furthermore Greece in 1913 was not a powerfull country to acquiare any land it desired. This land was "given" to Greece bacause it historiacly belonged to Greece and its residents were Greek. </font>

I don`t say it`s illegal. But that doesn`t make it Right. It bullying. Someone deciding other peoples future is right? True, Greece wasnt powerfull to acquire a Land, but HAD SOME VERY POWERFULL ALLIES. They ( together with Britain & France) were more powerful, infact they (GB & F) were the 2 most powerful nations at the time. And you think u were given Aegea just because u owned it once? I`m pretty sure it was some kind of a deal, for ex. Greece was repaid for some favors, or something. I`m sure that it had a major influence on their decision, but your Historical claim on that territory was surely not the only reason.
Gurm said it right. There are 3 sides of the Story.

Mine, yours, and the Truth.

In this case, the truth is somewhere inbetween. But, please, please dont tell me that you`re the Author of the Web Site or that you believe in EVERYTHING it says.

And the Votes ... I sure hope that they are just votes, and NOT HOPES about us, which would mean that u want me , or beeing something that i`m NOT.

But u seem to be avoiding (most of) my questions.

I`m ready to make a compromise, but your suggestion of the "total truth" is in no way different from "ours" (the ones you pointed as Nationalists and Propaganda sites).

[This message has been edited by omegaRED (edited 12 March 2001).]

[stevenscott]

Please take the Clinton, we have them stinking up the USA and probably has something to do with those problems too. Crooks run the politics. And we are knee deep in corrupt politicians here in the USA.

[Gurm]

Windigo,

You completely missed my point. I was playing Devil's advocate. Did you not read the part at the top where I said that I didn't actually mean any of the things I was about to say?

I think the problem here is that we have a group of people (and it's not just the europeans this time, thank God for small miracles) who both fail to understand sarcasm and can't hold a rational discussion without getting personally offended.

And THAT, my friends, is what causes wars. Well, that and money.

- Gurm

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Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[Rags]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">And a new one was just recently appointed to the presidence.</font>

Hehehe, you know I am going to bring this up, so show some proof of what you said

Rags

[alessandro]

Me the author of this site LOL
I have other things more important to do than making stupid sites(like writing my PhD Thesis that is due this year ).
I said that is ONE of the sites about the macedonia problem, search for more in the net.

[windigo]

i guess u didnt see the smily faces on my post Gurm just poking and proding hehehehe

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MSI K7TPro2 Duron 750@900
256Ram G400DH32mb
Pioneer SCSI 16xDVD

[omegaRED]

Ok, glad to hear it, let`s just leave this to the politicians to sort it out.

------------------
Seth, are you ok ?
I`m peachy, Kate. The world is my oyster.

[paulcs]

I knew this would be an interesting and potentially volatile thread. And I suspected it would turn into a Macedonia-Greek thing as opposed to the Macedonia-Albania. Such a long and complex relationship with claims going back to Alexander.

OmegaRED, I think you should take note of the untenable position NATO finds itself in with respect to your part of the world. I've read that both the first Bush administration and then the Clinton administration considered Macedonia "ground zero." An *outside* threat to Macedonian sovereignty would be considered a reason for the US to act -- unilaterally if necessary.

NATO takes Macedonia and its problems very seriously. I suspect, however, that the Alliance considers itself between a rock and a hard place. Doing anything, anything at all, tends to lead. Doing nothing tends to lead to epic tradegy and horrific quagmires.

So, for any Americans or any others who supported the NATO bombings, thank you very much for helping them kill us.

I suspect Americans and the entire alliance can also extend many thanks to the people of the Balkans. I can get specific if you like.

Paul
paulcs@flashcom.net

[omegaRED]

Yes, yes, read my posts earlier, i CLEARLY stated that we`re not in any way connected to Alexander the Great. Besides, i agreed ( i think Alessandro did too) to drop the Macedonia-Greece subject. I do, however, understand the position NATO is in right now, but you could say that it`s their own fault.

The whole approach to the Kosovo problem was wrong. Killing someone in order to keep them from killing others makes no sense. I agree that NATO ( or UN ) should`ve acted, but not by Bombarding Serbia. They supported one side ( the Albanian ) in that conflict, when they should`ve been neutral. It`s no secret that there were Training Camps for the Albanian Rebels in Albania, Kosovo and probably here too, and they were led by ( probably ) American instructors. And, NATO didn`t deny they were working together with the Rebels against the Serbs.

But the point is, NATO has gotten itself into something they can`t (or wont) handle. Do u know that ~50% o ( Kosovo Liberation Army) havent been disarmed yet?( nor is there any chance they will be). Those are the Rebels who are here now and causing the problems. I dont know what were they expecting, perhaps they expected they could cope with the problems easily, but not with problems of these proportions. We feel that the Americans ( who are guarding the Kosovo-Macedonia border ) arent doing their job too well. I know, they weren`t stationed there to shoot at Albanians, or anyone else for that matter who tries to cross the Border illegaly, but Gen.Jack Marshall (i think that`s his name), told the Press couple of days ago, that they saw a group of 75-150 armed people in black Uniforms crossing the Border, leaving their Weapons & Uniforms in some house & then walking away like Civilians in Kosovo. Did they take any action? No they didn`t. NATO took the responsibility when they entered Kosovo as a peace-keeping force. Did they think that all they`d have to do was tell the UCK to drop the weapons and they`d do it?

I repeat, i understand NATO ( US ) position in this matter. BUT THEY SHOULD HAVE ANTICIPATED THIS, BEFORE THEY ENTERED THE CONFLICT.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">So, for any Americans or any others who supported the NATO bombings, thank you very much for helping them kill us.</font>

I wrote this the same day those 3 Soldiers were killed, 2 of them were just 1 year older than me, so i wrote it in a moment of bitterness.

But Paul, please do get specific.

[This message has been edited by omegaRED (edited 08 March 2001).]

[Joel]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">And we are knee deep in corrupt politicians here in the USA.</font>

And a new one was just recently appointed to the presidence.

Joel